thanks for the kind words. I just dropped him an email stating that I want the guitars as they are, with all the hardware, pickups, apparel and whatnot to be shipped to me, so I can finish them myself. I don't care that the binding is not ok and I don't care for that back. I just want them. NOW! and I also want 1000 euro's as compensation, because this is NOT worth 3200 euro's (4000 dollars).
When do errors and mistakes stop being acceptable in a custombuild?
- Thread starter Orpheo
- Start date
Strat Avenger
Hero Member
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I don't accept any errors on a custom guitar. The whole purpose of a custom guitar is to have something that is a cut above a mass-produced guitar.
Hey man, I'm not a lawyer but I do have some experience in law matters. Because he is based in the UK the entire contract falls under UK law, you can't work the incompetence angle unfortunately because under UK Law: "The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 requires a supplier of a service acting in the course of business in England, Wales and Northern Ireland to carry out that service with reasonable care and skill and, unless agreed to the contrary, within a reasonable time and make no more than a reasonable charge." Because of his liability notice to accept no liability for any incompetence on his part means he has broke no laws. I'm sure there is definitely SOME law or system to protect you as a buyer I'll try and track something down for you man cause this is totally unacceptable.
Best Of Luck
Pete.
Best Of Luck
Pete.
bagman67
Epic Member
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elfro89 said:
Crossborder litigation is never cheap, and 4000 euros worth of custom guitars would likely not justify the expense, leaving aside the friendliness of the courts to small claims in either of the jurisdictions involved. Lawsuits are a lousy way to solve a problem, even as a last resort.
bagman67
Epic Member
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elfro89 said:
Having drafted a few such letters myself when I was a practicing attorney, I can say that sometimes the nasty-gram works, and other times... well, not so much.
But that's academic, because it sounds like Orpheo's merchant is open to a solution that gets him and Orpheo both out of this doomed relationship without resorting to litigation. Unless I'm misinterpreting the preceding posts, which is possible.
Orpheo said:elfro89 said:
I'm sick at home, so I'm afraid I didn't fully understand that part. Can you please elaborate?
I'm researching into the options of going Brittain myself and pickup up the guitars and parts myself. I'll make those bloody ebony pickuprings myself!
Sure man. "The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 requires a supplier of a service acting in the course of business in England, Wales and Northern Ireland to carry out that service with reasonable care and skill and, unless agreed to the contrary, within a reasonable time and make no more than a reasonable charge."
Providing he based in England, Wales and Northern Ireland then he has to do the work with reasonable care and skill, if you feel he has not done so you are well within your rights to use legal action. He also has to do the work within a reasonable time frame at a reasonable charge, if he has taken more then 2 years to do this build and charged you more then what you think he should have, then you will be within your rights to file legal action. It sounds to me that he has breached a few areas of the supply act.
Again I am no expert, but in Britain warranty in regards to recieving botched goods only exists from a company once you receive a product, if he is telling you that you have lost warranty on the product and you have not received the product then warranty still applies and he is talking out his rectum.
Also, It would be a good idea to know exactly where he is based, Scotland has an entirely different set of laws, if he is from Scotland then this act does not apply.
As I said, the "offer and acceptance" part of the contract almost certainly will have been solidified - and have FULL LEGAL WEIGHT - in the e-mails which you and he went back and forth on, finalizing the design of the instrument. Unless you specifically SIGNED something agreeing that he would be exempt from all penalties cause by his mistakes, he can be held liable. He can't retroactively invent contract terms you've never seen....
If I were you, looking to pursue this, I would first print out all the emails, even two copies (no, three!). Then go through your copy with a red pencil and construct a "narrative" of the process by which you came to agreement on the design, material, and TIMING of the instruments. Whatever you do, do NOT change the order of any of the e-mails; it'll just mostly be deleting extraneous details. When you've got that firmed up, print out the essential e-mails (two copies), and then decide if the "story" would be better told with the injection of certain narrative elements to tie it together. If so, add them to the third round.
What you're looking to do is simplify and focus the EVIDENCE contained within your e-mails, but without deleting or distorting anything - remember he has the same records. You simply want to show what's happened. He's clearly been practicing willful deceit in some instances, so telling the truth is an essential element that separates you from him... I really, really don't think he wants to expose both his business practices and his lack of competent luthierity* to the world, so this is a weapon. In looking this over, his ability to lie fluently & constantly, everything from the health problems to his suppliers are all crooks to his employees are all crooks is pointing to a basic pathology in this guy; this would mean that the nicest of his customers are simply going to be losing the most, and only the ones who stand up have much hope of recouping... anything at all.
Having looked over the crimsonguitarsreviews website - the other guy - more carefully, I would be quite concerned about your plan to accept the bodies as they are, and he'll extract a promise of no further action? It's obvious from a few of those pictures that there are body woods separating along glue joints because they were never planed flat and matching; there's no amount of further work that can salvage that sort of fuckup.
*(Luthierity: well, it's a word NOW, dude.)
If I were you, looking to pursue this, I would first print out all the emails, even two copies (no, three!). Then go through your copy with a red pencil and construct a "narrative" of the process by which you came to agreement on the design, material, and TIMING of the instruments. Whatever you do, do NOT change the order of any of the e-mails; it'll just mostly be deleting extraneous details. When you've got that firmed up, print out the essential e-mails (two copies), and then decide if the "story" would be better told with the injection of certain narrative elements to tie it together. If so, add them to the third round.
What you're looking to do is simplify and focus the EVIDENCE contained within your e-mails, but without deleting or distorting anything - remember he has the same records. You simply want to show what's happened. He's clearly been practicing willful deceit in some instances, so telling the truth is an essential element that separates you from him... I really, really don't think he wants to expose both his business practices and his lack of competent luthierity* to the world, so this is a weapon. In looking this over, his ability to lie fluently & constantly, everything from the health problems to his suppliers are all crooks to his employees are all crooks is pointing to a basic pathology in this guy; this would mean that the nicest of his customers are simply going to be losing the most, and only the ones who stand up have much hope of recouping... anything at all.
Having looked over the crimsonguitarsreviews website - the other guy - more carefully, I would be quite concerned about your plan to accept the bodies as they are, and he'll extract a promise of no further action? It's obvious from a few of those pictures that there are body woods separating along glue joints because they were never planed flat and matching; there's no amount of further work that can salvage that sort of fuckup.
*(Luthierity: well, it's a word NOW, dude.)
may of the defects you see on that other site are due to bad finish or uncaring. that split top isn't really a split top, but a pencil line (according to Ben).
he has agreed to send the guitar carcasses and parts, as they are, but with the frets leveled etc etc.
He doesnt want to expose everything indeed. this topic is exactly everything he does not want. my tops and backs and everything were indeed planed flat, you can see it in the pics. but still... I hope they won't crack, but if they will,I'll just fill 'm up with a sliver of veneer.
I just want this over with. I'll cut my loses, and go on.
he has agreed to send the guitar carcasses and parts, as they are, but with the frets leveled etc etc.
He doesnt want to expose everything indeed. this topic is exactly everything he does not want. my tops and backs and everything were indeed planed flat, you can see it in the pics. but still... I hope they won't crack, but if they will,I'll just fill 'm up with a sliver of veneer.
I just want this over with. I'll cut my loses, and go on.
O
OzziePete
Guest
I've been thinking about this situation today, and I don't think it is deliberate deceit rather than workmanship that isn't up to the tag associated with a 'custom built guitar made by a luthier'. And, of course, a lack of transparency about the errors he has made.
On the other hand, if anyone has some proof that this builder deliberately lied about his business, health and family woes, then that makes it a VERY different story.
I'd also, if I was Ben, take this loss of a customer as a hard lesson learnt. And to learn it well.
He simply cannot continue doing this to his customers, because besides the negative business reputation he would build, the next customer might be far less civil. There are a number of musos who are well connected, and word can easily spread through the industry - both good and bad.
On the other hand, if anyone has some proof that this builder deliberately lied about his business, health and family woes, then that makes it a VERY different story.
I'd also, if I was Ben, take this loss of a customer as a hard lesson learnt. And to learn it well.
He simply cannot continue doing this to his customers, because besides the negative business reputation he would build, the next customer might be far less civil. There are a number of musos who are well connected, and word can easily spread through the industry - both good and bad.
O
OzziePete
Guest
Good luck with the delivery of the guitars to you and I hope you are feeling better (health wise), soon.
:icon_thumright:
:icon_thumright:
jay4321
Hero Member
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Orpheo I didn't read the entire thread, but given the poor workmanship and the terrible delay just end it if you haven't already. I certainly wouldn't pay him a cent nor accept an incomplete, off-spec, damaged product. If you've already paid him some amount I'm sorry, otherwise I'd just walk.
I understand you're shooting for your dream guitar and it's tough, but you'll be happier if you have it built by an honest luthier with some semblance of standards. One that would actually appreciate your (considerable) business.
I understand you're shooting for your dream guitar and it's tough, but you'll be happier if you have it built by an honest luthier with some semblance of standards. One that would actually appreciate your (considerable) business.
animal control
Junior Member
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- 107
It takes a lot of talent to build great guitars from scratch. It also takes a lot of different talent to run a successful business. Looks like your guy is long on the first and short on the second. It's like guitar players who think they can sing - maybe, maybe not.
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