WARNING : Careful with screws supplied with Gotoh Vintage Style tuners !!!
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NovasScootYa
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I had one mounting screw snap with no effort from a set of chrome split shaft Warmoth Vintage Tuners. All pilot holes, lube and installation were identical so failure was attributed to a flaw in a single screw. After installing 210 or more Vintage tuner screws I've never had a Fender or Kluson tuner screw fail to date probably by luck.
I agree with the assumption that screw quality may have dropped or perhaps a bad batch of screws got in the mix or the tuner manufacturer acquired cheaper screws suitable to replace screws from older necks and forgot about pilot holes, etc. If I run across another set of Vintage Warmoth/Gotoh tuners I will use stainless screws.
On the other hand I've had a flawed genuine Fender strap button screw snap during installation and other Fender button screws bend a bit over time so all current strap buttons are enlarged slightly to accept #8 Phillips stainless screws.
As for pilot hole size for wood screws there should be some friction against the screw shaft during installation after all it's a wood screw not a machine screw. When a small lubed tuner screw begins to feel too tight during installation it means the pilot hole is too small...duh.
I agree with the assumption that screw quality may have dropped or perhaps a bad batch of screws got in the mix or the tuner manufacturer acquired cheaper screws suitable to replace screws from older necks and forgot about pilot holes, etc. If I run across another set of Vintage Warmoth/Gotoh tuners I will use stainless screws.
On the other hand I've had a flawed genuine Fender strap button screw snap during installation and other Fender button screws bend a bit over time so all current strap buttons are enlarged slightly to accept #8 Phillips stainless screws.
As for pilot hole size for wood screws there should be some friction against the screw shaft during installation after all it's a wood screw not a machine screw. When a small lubed tuner screw begins to feel too tight during installation it means the pilot hole is too small...duh.
I can not believe how much mileage this thread is getting. I can't believe how many people do something wrong and blame the parts. It's really not so much the quality of the parts as it is the quality of the install and the construction of the screw. Anytime there is a transition in size or structure there will be a weak spot created. Regardless if it's a transition from screwhead to shank or shoulder to threads these become weak spots and that is where the screws fail.
Apologies if this raises an old thread, but I thought I would add in my experience. I am in the UK rather than US, and couldn;t find any drills locally in inches or oldy worlde sizes, so had to go with mm.
Received a Gotoh vintage set (11/32) last week and seem to have the same screws as mentioned in this thread - threaded part way then smooth at the top - not sure of the material though. I haven't got calipers but the threaded bit (to outside thread edges) and the smooth bit were roughly 2mm across
I basically pilot drilled to a depth of about 9mm, with a 1.5mm drill. This was too tight, so I backed out the screw before going too far, then pilot drilled again with a 2mm drill, this time (with beeswax) the screw fitted perfectly and bit into the maple as it went in.
Super smooth, no problems on all 7 screws.
Received a Gotoh vintage set (11/32) last week and seem to have the same screws as mentioned in this thread - threaded part way then smooth at the top - not sure of the material though. I haven't got calipers but the threaded bit (to outside thread edges) and the smooth bit were roughly 2mm across
I basically pilot drilled to a depth of about 9mm, with a 1.5mm drill. This was too tight, so I backed out the screw before going too far, then pilot drilled again with a 2mm drill, this time (with beeswax) the screw fitted perfectly and bit into the maple as it went in.
Super smooth, no problems on all 7 screws.
O
OzziePete
Guest
mcentee2 said:
Welcome to the forum..
Tuner peg screws are a nightmare, not just in Gotoh tuners but others as well. The screws are usually small brittle ones and you have to exercise a lot of care.
I'm surprised that hardware stores and the like in the UK don't sell imperial measurement drills now.
Using a pair of digital calipers will help a lot in this' find the right sized drill for this screw' scenario. Well worth the investment if building a project guitar or doing numerous repair jobs.
I recently used a pair to help me find a drill just a fraction smaller than the tuner screws, so the thread on the tuner screws would bite into the hole. I would strongly recommend you read =CB='s comments in this Thread and the linked Thread, it provides the technical knowledge about what size to use for a pilot hole.
I also used a tiny jewellers screwdriver that had the correct allen head pattern on it for those tiny screws. The jewellers screwdriver set (5 or 6 tiny screwdrivers) is readily avialable in most electronics stores, and you usually only need a cheap set of flat head and allen head screw drivers in that tiny range. That way you won't burr the heads of the screws and have a screw only half way in.
2mm is about .075ish (in my head)...
(from an old post)
I went out and measured all seven of the screws on the nickel plated screws with the Gotoh set of tuners I've got here.
The shank portion - the unthreaded portion - was .092-.094 on each of them. The maximum thread diameter was .098, but most were .096-.097. The minimum is hard to gauge, and doing it comparatively they appear to be about .065 ish.
The #49 drill is .073 - and I'd call that the smallest drill to use.
The 1/16 drill is .0625, and too small for hard woods like maple.
A 3/32 drill is .094 and too large
A 5/64 drill is .078 and would be ok, and that is within a few "ten thou" of 2mm, effectively the same size.
So here's the thing - if your screws have unthreaded portions.... drill the pilot hole with a 5/64 drill (or 2mm drill, both are easy to get), then go back and use a 3/32 drill for a body of the screw, depth as required for the unthreaded portion.
Its not a matter of crap screws, or wrong screws, or whatever... its a matter making the right hole. I can see advantages to having a non threaded portion of screw within the hole of the tuner, but its not critical. Those are the included screws that come with the set of tuners. Either use them correctly, or use different screws (and use those correctly as well). Choice is up to the person using the screws.
Your 2mm drill sounds like its right where you need to be. The 2mm, 5/64 inch or #49 are all very close to the same size, and even with a drill press, your "wobble factor" will be more than the slight diameter differences.
Good work!
(from an old post)
I went out and measured all seven of the screws on the nickel plated screws with the Gotoh set of tuners I've got here.
The shank portion - the unthreaded portion - was .092-.094 on each of them. The maximum thread diameter was .098, but most were .096-.097. The minimum is hard to gauge, and doing it comparatively they appear to be about .065 ish.
The #49 drill is .073 - and I'd call that the smallest drill to use.
The 1/16 drill is .0625, and too small for hard woods like maple.
A 3/32 drill is .094 and too large
A 5/64 drill is .078 and would be ok, and that is within a few "ten thou" of 2mm, effectively the same size.
So here's the thing - if your screws have unthreaded portions.... drill the pilot hole with a 5/64 drill (or 2mm drill, both are easy to get), then go back and use a 3/32 drill for a body of the screw, depth as required for the unthreaded portion.
Its not a matter of crap screws, or wrong screws, or whatever... its a matter making the right hole. I can see advantages to having a non threaded portion of screw within the hole of the tuner, but its not critical. Those are the included screws that come with the set of tuners. Either use them correctly, or use different screws (and use those correctly as well). Choice is up to the person using the screws.
Your 2mm drill sounds like its right where you need to be. The 2mm, 5/64 inch or #49 are all very close to the same size, and even with a drill press, your "wobble factor" will be more than the slight diameter differences.
Good work!
Jusatele
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I had a problem on my first neck years ago and always have had my luthier put my tuning keys on. I broke one when putting a warmoth neck on a strat years ago. Since then I have swapped out a few sets of tuners but am still shy of drilling and doing such myself. But I ordered new calipers, (thanks =CB= for the info in the other thread) and think on my next build I will do it. Now to just get over not wanting to invest into all the tools for doing a fret job/setup.........At what point are you no longer just a assembler and actually a amateur Luthier ?
Luthiers BUILD guitars. Assemblers assemble them.
!~~~~~~~!
Thinking some more about the screw holes, it probably wouldn't hurt to put a relief on the first little bit of hole.
The 3/32 drill - about .094, matches the "shank" part of the screws almost exactly. That part of the hole - where the shank contacts wood - is not being displaced by threads, so a full relief is in order, for the depth of the shank portion of the screw.
!~~~~~~~!
Thinking some more about the screw holes, it probably wouldn't hurt to put a relief on the first little bit of hole.
The 3/32 drill - about .094, matches the "shank" part of the screws almost exactly. That part of the hole - where the shank contacts wood - is not being displaced by threads, so a full relief is in order, for the depth of the shank portion of the screw.
O
OzziePete
Guest
I was drilling holes for tuners yesterday =CB=, and the differences in the pilot holes vs the diameters of the screws was about the same to what you have quoted above there in yellow, and I had no problems, barring drilling the first hole too large by NOT measuring the shank top of the shaft (as you call it) and using a too large drill, drilling it too deep, & making the whole pilot hole too large for the thread to bite. :doh:
I filled the hole with toothpicks using glue, let it dry, snipped off the overhang toothpicks, then redrilled with more carefully measured drills, and had no problems after that. :icon_thumright:
I think the main drill I used was a 2mm drill & after the first hole was reamed too large, I just concentrated on using the one drill bit and making a bit of extra room as the drill came up to the top to accomodate that shank portion. But I was drilling into Koa which is probably softer than Maple. In Maple you would probably want to make a second drill to allow for that shank.
A digtal caliper makes a hell of a lot of difference in this work, you can calculate just how thin a drill you want by measuring the screw with the calipers. Much more precise than just eyeballing it.
I filled the hole with toothpicks using glue, let it dry, snipped off the overhang toothpicks, then redrilled with more carefully measured drills, and had no problems after that. :icon_thumright:
I think the main drill I used was a 2mm drill & after the first hole was reamed too large, I just concentrated on using the one drill bit and making a bit of extra room as the drill came up to the top to accomodate that shank portion. But I was drilling into Koa which is probably softer than Maple. In Maple you would probably want to make a second drill to allow for that shank.
A digtal caliper makes a hell of a lot of difference in this work, you can calculate just how thin a drill you want by measuring the screw with the calipers. Much more precise than just eyeballing it.
W
Watershed
Guest
doodie said:
Unscrew-ums
https://tltools.com/index.aspx
I forgot the size. Small, get the small one, they expand.
https://tltools.com/product.aspx
There are cheaper ways (basically make one, -CB- posted instructions), but I'm too lazy.
Hope that helps,
James
Watershed and Max, thanks for the info and help. My gotoh tuners are modern type(10mm hole) with hex bushings screwed on top and I've tighten the hex bushing so the tuner with the broken screw arent rotating. So I guess I'll leave it be for now, anyway valueable lesson learned and I think this thread should be sticky on the forum so people will be extra careful with the gotoh tuner screws. :icon_thumright:
Unwound G
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Take heed - a new warning this time relating to Jim Dunlop's strap lock mounting screws. Again they have changed their previous stainless steel screws to either mild steel or alloy and the Phillips head just strips after a few times. Try to use better screws for these strap buttons because once in they are hard to remove with the stripped heads.
When installing tuner screws after I have drilled the hole I will usually take a pickup ring screw and lube it up and run it in the hole. It's a much better screw for applying torque to cut threads. The screw driver makes much better contact. I can say with almost certainty that a stripped head isn't the screws fault. Yes some screws can be softer than others but this is usually relative to the screws purpose. It will always be a case of wrong starter hole size, wrong screwdriver size (length as well as tip), tool condition (worn tips are just asking for trouble), or poor technique (downward pressure along with turning force). Quit blaming the screws.
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