WARNING : Careful with screws supplied with Gotoh Vintage Style tuners !!!

[Superbeast520]

I have to say out of all honesty I do not use any part that to me looks to be inferior in any way, which would be the case with the screws your talking about, at the same time I go out of my way to buy the exact tool for the job and make sure I limit the chances of an error occuring during asembly by making sure I have taken all the neccessary steps I can to prevent anything from going wrong.

It is true that sometimes things do happen and I do believe the screws in question do suck,   however I also believe if the proper size pilot hole is drilled as well as wax is used and the proper size screw driver tip is used there should be alot less chance of a problem like this occuring.

I do believe that if your going the distance to build a top quality guitar you should also go the distance to have the assembly done right, wether by yourself with the proper tools or by somebody else with the proper tools, that being said my last guitar I did all the work on just as I will on my current build and all with the simplest of tools.....a Drill, Good bits, and some screw drivers,hex keys a couple small wrenches and a solder gun, I will also need nut files to properly dress the nut for my string gauges and will also buy a few setup tools to get the setup as exact as possible. (good guitar build books are also very,very usefull.)

I do not drive any screws with a drill or power driver ever......if that makes me an amatuer no sweat, I havn't snapped any screws yet and don't see it being a problem anytime soon....I take my time and work on each piece patiently one step at a time and do my best to be as thorough and meticulous as possible, no rushing any aspect of the build, it took this long to get all the parts so why not enjoy the ride.

I have noticed other companies also cheaping out in areas of production and materials so this dosn't surprise me as everyone is trying to save a buck these days, one of the reasons I prefer to wait and buy the best parts available is not wanting to have regrets later....want better parts? buy better parts, want better screws? buy better screws...thats what building it yourself is all about...you get to controll all aspects of the guitar and build process...its a learning and personal choice experience. Sadly some of the ways we learn is trial and error, I wish you guys that had the problems the best I know it sucks having to compensate for those unexpecteds, which is part of the beauty in being a crusty old guy....you learn what to do and what not to do.

 

[Unwound G]

The purpose of this thread is for the unsuspecting, like myself, who expected the screws supplied with the tuners to be strong and sturdy.  In my case, I have installed so many of these tuners that these screws never gave me a problem until recently.  Truly, one cannot see their inferiority visually until one snaps.

I am glad Superbeast520, stubhead and CB all contributed to this thread as solutions to overcome the mishaps of using these poor quality screws.  So now we know how to use the correct diameter drill bit, the full depth of pilot holes, lubricating the screws and using the appropriate screwdriver.

As for myself, I would just throw these screws away and get some good sturdy stainless steel ones.

Peace.

UG. 

 

[Superbeast520]

Hey I just wanted to say your absolutely in your right to expect the screws that you got with your tuners to be of a good quality screw, especially when your talking about how serious a problem it can cause should they break as you stated....
I am with you in thinking its bogus for companies like Gotoh and any others to supply their products with such crappy screws believe me I am. you should not have to worry about a screw snapping off thats for darn sure......my empathy goes out to you or anyone else who experienced that problem.
 I think your right to go with stainless for now on, as I do, and I also think it was good of you to bring it to other peoples attention, sadly it will probably go uncorrected by the manufacturers as they ship world wide in bulk and are trying to cut weight and manufacturing cost, it could have happened to anyone of us so don't feel like anyone is getting down on you. I would be pi**ed if it happened to me, but I already know how those things go....lucky for me I broke off those cheap kinds of screws doing other things and already know the deal.
                                                                Later Unwound G, I hope thing are looking up now.  Chris

 

[Unwound G]

Chris, thanks for your understanding.  Let us hope quality guitar parts remain as quality parts and not slip to cut corners.

 

[-CB-]

+1 with Stubs on the "use the right tool"

For what its worth, a #49 (if thats the right size... I dunno) is so close to a 2mm drill it aint funny.  So if its #49, just use 2mm.

Soon as my jeans get out of the dryer, I'll be mic'ing up some screws, with a report back here.

 

[-CB-]

I went out and measured all seven of the screws on the nickel plated screws with the Gotoh set of tuners I've got here.

The shank portion - the unthreaded portion - was .092-.094 on each of them.  The maximum thread diameter was .098, but most were .096-.097.  The minimum is hard to gauge, and doing it comparatively they appear to be about .065 ish.

The #49 drill is .073 - and I'd call that the smallest drill to use.

The 1/16 drill is .0625, and too small for hard woods like maple.

A 3/32 drill is .094 and too large

A 5/64 drill is .078 and would be ok, and that is within a few "ten thou" of 2mm, effectively the same size.

So here's the thing - if your screws have unthreaded portions.... drill the pilot hole with a 5/64 drill (or 2mm drill, both are easy to get), then go back and use a 3/32 drill for a body of the screw, depth as required for the unthreaded portion.

Its not a matter of crap screws, or wrong screws, or whatever... its a matter making the right hole.  I can see advantages to having a non threaded portion of screw within the hole of the tuner, but its not critical.  Those are the included screws that come with the set of tuners.  Either use them correctly, or use different screws (and use those correctly as well).  Choice is up to the person using the screws.

 

[stubhead]

To add to CB's earlier point, these screws are non-structural - they're really just alignment pins. The bushing holds the tuner on. On one of my builds, I actually measured the holes in the tuner tab, drilled a (correct-sized) hole in the headstock, and installed short pins cut out of a thick stainless wire. They stick up just as far as the top of the tab on the tuner. You'd really be better off having screw holes too big, and using wood glue to secure the screws, than trying to fit a .097" screw in a 1/16" hole. CB - those sound like bass tuner screws, maybe? I have used the wire size bits #61 and #63 on those.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill_bit_sizes#US_number_and_letter_gauge_drill_bit_sizes

I do think it's misleading for a company selling quality tuners to include screws that aren't as good as they should be. You'd be better off if they sent NO screws, at least you'd then get some good ones. I have dozens of little bags full of all different sizes of crap screws, I must be saving them for some reason.... :icon_scratch:

I'm lucky enough to live near a real, old-fashioned hardware store, with two aisles full of little drawers, full of little screws. A trip to the store to solve the screw crisis is just part of a build procedure, to me. I wouldn't be surprised if Ace and the likes sell crap screws these days.

And, triple-ditto on the hand screwdrivers. Just because somebody makes an electric tool that does something, doesn't mean it's better than the hand tool. Electric toothbrushes! Talking wristwatches! etc.

Gee, it would be swell if Warmoth would open up an adjunctive "Super-Screw Dept." to the parts pages.... Gee.... ccasion14:

Again, if anybody wants to buy a #49 drill bit (and stop carping) contact me, I had to buy a dozen to get the two I'll need for the rest of my life.

 

[-CB-]

I've got a better idea.... I think we should start a petition, to be given as a group, to all the tuner manufacturers, stating that they have to include screws that fit the pilot holes for the drill size we have on hand at any given time. 

There, that'll teach those crap screw folks. 

 

[Cagey]

Maple is an awfully hard wood. You almost have to treat it like metal. You can't really even drive nails into it without pilot holes. It doesn't compress like some woods do, so if the screw hole isn't big enough, the screw seizes. Add some more torque, and something's gonna give, usually the screw.

 

[-CB-]

Ya got the inner thread diameter, and the outer thread diameter. 

On hard woods - you need a hole that is larger than the inner thread diameter, so that just the outer threads are touching the wood.  Even on hard woods, the outer threads will displace a little material, and that material will fill the voids between the inner thread diameter and the wall of the hole.  On softer woods, more easily displaced, you can use a slightly smaller hole - but the concept of material displacement still applies.

 

[telebender]

Just installed a set yesterday - 5th set of Gotoh Vintage I have put on in the last few years. Drilled pilot holes and waxed the screws just like I always do. First one broke halfway in - wasn't even to the unthreaded part yet and I use a good driver and don't torque hard. These things do look like plastic - the metal is white and soft in the break. The other ones worked fine, so there may be some QA issues going on here too. I was able to drill out the broken screw, so no big deal, but it is the first time this has happened to me.

 

[BigBeard]

When I drill these tiny little holes, this is one time that I will 'hog out' the hole by running the drill in a circular fashion to effectively make the hole bigger on the top of the hole.  As long as those little buggers are just biting I am happy.  In fact, if they don't bite, I'm not opposed to tossing a little CA glue in the holes and running the screws into that.  They hold just fine that way.  I have even used plain water in these tiny little holes to get the wood to expand and let the screws bite.  These tiny little phuckers are screws that I go to the hardware and source in stainless also. 

Another tip I have for these is concerning the drill bit.  I went to Harbor Freight and bought some tiny little dremel drill bits.  Like $4 for 10 bits.  They go from 'red c*nt hair' sized to about an eigth inch or so.  The 'red c*nt hair' ones snap pretty expeditiously, kind of one time use, but they are helpful for drilling tasks such as this bullshit job!  Oh,  don't decide to snap off a drill bit in the headstock, because it's tough to drill out a drill bit with a bit that is as hard as the broken bit, it just walks off the end of the bit broken off in the wood and you end up with a horrible mess under the tuner, and you have to glue the damn broken screw head and stub attached to it to the tuner and hope it works as a pin (don't ask how I know these details!!!!)

 

[Twelvebar]

I agree with a couple of the posters here, the screws aren't the issue. It all comes down to assembling your Warmoth isn't just snapping together lego pieces.

The price for having options for which components you use is that YOU have to do some of the work. So you need to actually learn how to do it, properly.

High quality parts like your maple neck, are deserving of the care and attention needed to actually drill the right sized holes.

I drill the same way as CB, I always size the bit so only the outer edges of the threads bite,and I still always wax the threads, if you take a little effort before hand, you avoid pain later on. This isn't a completely ready to assemble kit. you are expected to have enough knowledge to do the work that isn't pre-done.

if they went with a different screw it only means you have to be more diligent, and make sure you drill the right hole for the screw at hand. it shouldn't need a crazy amount of shear strength.
I don't understand putting $1000 or more into a project, and then not taking the care to do the work carefully.

 

[Cagey]

I suspect maybe some people are treating that screw as though it's a fastener, and it's not. It doesn't need to be tight enough to hold the tuner on the headstock. It's just a cheap and dirty locating pin. It's only there to keep the tuner from turning in its hole when the torsional stress of a string is applied. As such, it doesn't need to be squeaky tight. It just needs to be in there well enough that it won't move. Some tuners, Sperzels for example, actually use locating pins instead of screws.

 

[nexrex]

I always make sure to drill a generously sized pilot hole, and use a little bit of candle wax on these. Never had one snap before, but the phillips heads are kind of easy to strip.

 

[Unwound G]

Kluson style tuners actually need screws as fasteners unlike Schaller or Sperzels where the tuners are fastened with threaded head bushings.  The Kluson screws need to be tensioned tightly to keep the tuners in place and for tuning stability.  The issue is why supply these tuners with soft screws ?

 

[Cagey]

Agreed, with the Gotohs if you have to apply too much tension when you tighten them it mean your screw holes are too small. It's simple physics really. This friction generates heat swelling and softening the alloy, which is why they are snapping.

If that were true, people would be setting their necks on fire by installing tuning pegs. Even solder needs to get to roughly 350-400 degrees F before it starts getting soft, and I'm pretty sure they don't make those screws out of that. Even if the screws were die cast of zinc or aluminum, they'd still have a melting point well north of 400 degrees. There's simply no way those screws are getting that hot from a tight fit in hardwood at hand-turning speeds. Then, with any metal, you have a crystalline structure that goes from a solid to plastic to liquid state inside a fairly narrow band of temperatures. Think of water - it goes from a liquid to a solid over a range of 1 degree. Metal's not that close, but it's similar.

 

[nexrex]

Agreed, with the Gotohs if you have to apply too much tension when you tighten them it mean your screw holes are too small. It's simple physics really. This friction generates heat swelling and softening the alloy, which is why they are snapping.

If that were true, people would be setting their necks on fire by installing tuning pegs. Even solder needs to get to roughly 350-400 degrees F before it starts getting soft, and I'm pretty sure they don't make those screws out of that. Even if the screws were die cast of zinc or aluminum, they'd still have a melting point well north of 400 degrees. There's simply no way those screws are getting that hot from a tight fit in hardwood at hand-turning speeds. Then, with any metal, you have a crystalline structure that goes from a solid to plastic to liquid state inside a fairly narrow band of temperatures. Think of water - it goes from a liquid to a solid over a range of 1 degree. Metal's not that close, but it's similar.

K, I stand corrected on the heat issue. I was really trying to stress the importance (as other poster have) on proper technique and using the right tools. My logic has always been, to do something properly, and to do it right the first time.  :icon_thumright:

PS: finished my VIP build 2 days ago. Please tell me what you all think.
http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=13291.0
Cheers

 

[strumminsix]

Lots of good info here.  I've got wood working and fabrication experience but little guitar building experience.

I stripped the head a bit on the last turn of the first screw.  Many folks don't realize pilot holes should be deeper and wider when you will removing the screws in the future.  It's not construction where you want it as tight as can be and slammed together hard to never move again.


I think the 2 bits of advice below are perfect:

Make the hole the right size and you wont break the screw.

Just don't underestimate how soft those screws are.

 

[-CB-]

PILOT hole... PILOT hole... PILOT hole.... use the right size drill... not just a starter hole, but a correctly sized pilot hole....