Vintage tuners versus new-school locking tuners

[jay4321]

So Tonar was asking me something about one of my necks he’s doing the finishing on regarding contours. Anyway he sent this pic comparing mine one of his finished necks which obviously looks great, but I got to thinking about the tuners.

I'm accustomed to using Schaller locking tuners, they're solid and look nice. I use Planet Waves on occasion - they are (in my opinion) the best tuners functionally speaking but look a little off on many headstocks to me. On my LP with the black headstock they’re excellent… on a maple strat, eh, not so much, so I stick with the Schallers.

Anyway, those vintage-y ones you see here in Tonar’s pic - what's the deal with those? Do they stay in tune well?

I know a lot of you vintage guys are into that style but I was wondering if it's just to maintain the appearance. My experience having a variety of midrange and cheap guitars over the years was that they gave me all kinds of tuning issues (and a little extra work changing strings). I played tons from about 1989 to maybe 1998 on cheap guitars so I’m sure that’s a factor. 

So can anyone tell me their likes/dislikes about these kinds of old school tuners? How do they hold up? What brands are the high-quality, etc? I may use these on a vintage-type hard-tail project and any feedback would be appreciated.

 

[dbw]

A lot of people say the vintage style tuners are the best... I say bull.  I really like the Schaller mini locking tuners.  The only drawback, in my opinion, is they're a lot heavier.

 

[tfarny]

These are my absolute favorite tuners now, they'll go on any fender-type build I do: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_solid_peghead_tuners/Gotoh_Locking_Vintage_Oval_Knob_Tuners.html
They nail the old school look, yet lock and stay in tune perfectly. And I think Gotoh does a much better job of plating than schaller. The real old-school ones, you need to stick the string end into the center of the post, like on a bass. Absolute PITA.

 

[buckallred]

Second on the schaller mini locking tuners. I don't like the vintage ones. They look great and work very, very well.

And, for some of us, the schaller "button" style of tuners look vintage. . .. meaning my first squier strat, circa 1986, had those style of tuners. So more like mid-1980s vintage.

 

[tfarny]

mid-80s vintage is good, because,,,? :icon_biggrin:

I have the schallers too but they're heavy and don't work any better than even the cheapest Gotohs I have used.

 

[Tonar8352]

I sold my neck with locking tuners because I prefer the tone of the vintage tuners.  The locking tuners seemed darker to me and they weighed more.  I will have to qualify that the sold neck also had a Graphtech nut, which I stopped using in favor of bone. I have not had tuning problems with the vintage style Kluson tuners as long as the bone nut is properly cut.

I will also say that once I started using DeTemple aluminum blocks on my tremolos  strats became extremely easy to tune.  The only problem with the DeTemple stuff is the sticker shock will almost kill you but they will go into any strat that I plan on keeping.  They live up to they hype in my opinion.

 

[dbw]

With real locking tuners like Schallers you only need the string wrapped 1/4 to 1/2 of the way around the post.  This gives you really rock-solid tuning.  And they make changing strings really easy.  Tighten the thumbscrew really well before tuning to pitch, otherwise they'll slip.  I have not use the locking gotohs so I don't know if they're strong enough to do this.  The Schallers also have the advantage of not requiring tools.

I'm not denying they're heavy.  My strat (hollow korina, rosewood neck) is a little neck-heavy without a strap, and I think switching to vintage tuners would fix that.  But the ease of changing strings and tuning is worth it for me.

 

[Alfang]

Hey Tfarny, I like those tuners you left a link for, I don't get how they are locking cuz i didn't read all the info, wheres the locking function? I'd like to use those if they are locking, I like the old retro look.

Tonar, I love your finnishes, I know your a smart guy, I can't believe for a second that tuners either add or subtract from tone, it's a post with the string attached to it in one way or another, weather its locking, 12:1  or 18:1 doesn't matter, all that has to do with is getting to pitch. If theres a reason you feel the way you do please share, cuz I don't get it.

I believe whole heartedly, that the tone we get from a solid body guitar starts and ends with the pick ups, with a bit of influence from all other parts combined, and I mean a small bit.  Don't get me wrong, I may be out in left field, but I don't think so. Everytime I change one pickup from one guitare to the next, the sound follows the pickups, theres a bit of diferance for sure, but it's a small change. Small enough to consider tuners to be of no influence, but maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

 

[tfarny]

I agree with Alf.
Grover  locking rotomatics work the same, I think: To lock the string in place, you just turn the button, there's only the one. Eventually it tightens down the string, then it works like a normal tuner in both directions. I've had two pair and they've never let a string loose. To remove the string, you take a penny, or a pick I guess, and turn the blade screwdriver slot on the top counterclockwise a half turn and the string pops out. They weigh the same as non-locking. I'm telling you, they're great tuners. Fit the Warmoth 'vintage' tuner holes. Here, I'll take a pic and show you:

 

[erogenousjones17]

I was looking at those Grovers for my current build (it's not really a Warmoth, so no thread here I guess). It's good to know someone has used them and approves.

 

[nathan a]

I'm in on those Gotoh vintage-type locking tuners too, they look so cool but actually stay in tune.

And as for tuners and tone, I don't have much of an opinion, but I WILL say this: if you play with a bunch of distortion and/or pedals, I'm sure your tone just follows your pickups. If you play clean or somewhat overdriven, then I imagine a lot more build aspects come into play in shaping your tone.

 

[dbw]

Those do look pretty cool.  Maybe I'll try it when I buy a new neck for my poplar strat.

 

[stubhead]

The Schaller tuners are heavy, and weight in the headstock matters. I like it, for the most part, but it's a sustain-y, steel-y tonal change... obviously it's a percentage thing. If you have an extra-wide boatneck with Warmoth's double truss rod, the percentage weight change of the tuners will be less than if you have a vintage-rodded standard thin. And as mentioned, overdriven tone depend more on the electronics, in fingerpicked jazz the wood's the thing - depends on what you're shooting for. Roger Sadowski specifically uses large, heavy tuners on his basses because he feels it even out the tone, and some people have installed brass sheeting on the back of their headstocks for the same reason.

The Planet Waves are lighter and in my opinion, less accurate than the Schallers. In the light realm, I have had great success with the (cheap!) SG38 Gotohs that Warmoth sells - vintage-y buttons, but modern sealed function. Klusons are an abomination, and it appalls me that Fender & Gibson would put them on $5000 Custom Shop re-issues because "that's the way Leo did it." 

Time marches on - do you put a crank starter on a Ferrari? Hell, I wouldn't allow a crank starter on my Toyota, and I won't put Krapsons on a guitar. The first thing everybody DID when they got a guitar way back when was throw out the tuners and put on Schallers or Grovers... now they all been converted back to Krap tuners to be "correct." :icon_scratch:

in fingerpicked jazz the wood's the thing -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpyDDvpOLMc&feature=channel

 

[Shandrazar]

Nobody has mentioned Sperzels yet.  I have some on my Carvin and I really like them.  How do they compare to the other locking tuners?  I have one or two other guitars I was planning to retrofit with Sperzels one day, but I'm open to other ideas.

 

[Rick]

So can anyone tell me their likes/dislikes about these kinds of old school tuners?
They work, but I like Planet Waves the best.  Just pull the string throught the ferruls, then into the post, twist the knob, tune, it cuts the strings, and you're off.  I have never had tuning issues.  It's a matter of convenience.
How do they hold up?
The classic tuners work just fine.  They'll hold up for years.
What brands are the high-quality, etc?
See comments above.  I like the schallers.

 

[tfarny]

Sperzels are fine too - I mean really, most any tuner you buy is going to be fine nowadays. Sperzels are expensive though and have that skinny little thumb wheel.
And I agree with Stub, those cheap gotoh sg38 work great for non-locking. I just hate the kluson-type where you need to put the string end in the post and wind forever like a bass.

 

[Superlizard]

RE:  Repro vintage-style Kluson tuners with the post holes

- measure the string out 2 tuners up from the tuner you're gonna put the string on
- cut string there
- stick cut string in post hole
- wind 'er up

You'll get approx a wind and a half.   :icon_thumright:

 

[dbw]

With the Schallers, I pull the string semi-tight and tighten the thumbscrew (a lot).  Then I trim and tune to pitch.  Under 1/2 wrap if you do it right!  If you do it wrong the string will pop and and startle your cat.

 

[lidesnowi]

I had spertzel for 20 years but now i found these Gotoh HAPM Tuners.Great stuff : :blob7:!

 

[Mor Paul]

Um... trollicious?