Tube Manufacturers

[Death by Uberschall]

Out of curiosity, what is the difference between boosting a signal and amplifying one? 

DbU and Doug, I am curious if either of you has ever tried the KT77 as a replacement for the EL34.  They do sound a bit tighter to me.  More Metal less Classic Rock.  Still, I'd like to hear your reviews if you have tried them.
Patrick

For my taste, I'm sticking with the JJ E34L/EL34 tubes. The way my Uberschall gets thick and massive as the gain gets close to straight up on the master is wonderful. I don't want it tightened up any. The amp doesn't necessarily get louder, just better.

I do hear good things about the Gold Lion KT77.

 

[DangerousR6]

Out of curiosity, what is the difference between boosting a signal and amplifying one?  

DbU and Doug, I am curious if either of you has ever tried the KT77 as a replacement for the EL34.  They do sound a bit tighter to me.  More Metal less Classic Rock.  Still, I'd like to hear your reviews if you have tried them.
Patrick

For my taste, I'm sticking with the JJ E34L/EL34 tubes. The way my Uberschall gets thick and massive as the gain gets close to straight up on the master is wonderful. I don't want it tightened up any. The amp doesn't necessarily get louder, just better.

I do hear good things about the Gold Lion KT77.

Never tried them, but I've read that they are tighter than the EL34's, but not as tight as the E34L's..With a bit more bottom end...Like some girls I know.... :laughing7:

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Yeah, I have a Green board Uberschall, and it is massive any where the gain is.  I might have to look into the mods that are rumored to have popped up that Bogner did to make the gain a bit more versatile.  The KT77's were not that different in tone, just seemed to be more responsive to my playing, and a tighter sound.  Hard to describe, it is huge any which way you cut it, but the 77's made it a bit snappier.  Words fail me I guess.
Patrick

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Out of curiosity, what is the difference between boosting a signal and amplifying one?  

DbU and Doug, I am curious if either of you has ever tried the KT77 as a replacement for the EL34.  They do sound a bit tighter to me.  More Metal less Classic Rock.  Still, I'd like to hear your reviews if you have tried them.
Patrick

For my taste, I'm sticking with the JJ E34L/EL34 tubes. The way my Uberschall gets thick and massive as the gain gets close to straight up on the master is wonderful. I don't want it tightened up any. The amp doesn't necessarily get louder, just better.

I do hear good things about the Gold Lion KT77.

Never tried them, but I've read that they are tighter than the EL34's, but not as tight as the E34L's..With a bit more bottom end...Like some girls I know.... :laughing7:

[youtube=425,350]GzsWuqNlLK4[/youtube]

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Yeah, I have a Green board Uberschall, and it is massive any where the gain is.  I might have to look into the mods that are rumored to have popped up that Bogner did to make the gain a bit more versatile.  The KT77's were not that different in tone, just seemed to be more responsive to my playing, and a tighter sound.  Hard to describe, it is huge any which way you cut it, but the 77's made it a bit snappier.  Words fail me I guess.
Patrick

The only thing Reinhold changed for the Rev2 from the original was to make the gain tapper smoother, more usable.

And what I said a few post ago was mistyped. I like it when the MASTER gets closer to straight up 12:00 on the amp, my pre-amp gain pretty much stays the same, but when that power section starts to thicken up it gets massive.

 

[DangerousR6]

Out of curiosity, what is the difference between boosting a signal and amplifying one?  

DbU and Doug, I am curious if either of you has ever tried the KT77 as a replacement for the EL34.  They do sound a bit tighter to me.  More Metal less Classic Rock.  Still, I'd like to hear your reviews if you have tried them.
Patrick

For my taste, I'm sticking with the JJ E34L/EL34 tubes. The way my Uberschall gets thick and massive as the gain gets close to straight up on the master is wonderful. I don't want it tightened up any. The amp doesn't necessarily get louder, just better.

I do hear good things about the Gold Lion KT77.

Never tried them, but I've read that they are tighter than the EL34's, but not as tight as the E34L's..With a bit more bottom end...Like some girls I know.... :laughing7:

[youtube=425,350]GzsWuqNlLK4[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]VMnjF1O4eH0[/youtube]

 

[OzziePete]

what if you lower the voltage?

Can't understand why you'd wanna go that deep into the workings of an amp's circuit & change things around. I do hope you know what is involved to accomplish this safely.

Linking a recording reference book is kinda hard to grasp what point you were trying to make in that post too...

 

[Jusatele]

Pre amp bias settings are a compromise at best, they are set so that the tube has maximum life, and that is about it. Tubes have many uses, if you study radios you get to realize why we had to get away from tubes and go solid state in most applications as tubes are at best a project of diminishing return, the very design of a tube is that it destroys itself. Such as the way they bias Amp tubes, so can you bias a preamp tube to get different responses out of it. I know each tube has it's perfect bias to idle correctly, but if we accepted that as a point to place it we mise as well accept generic products where ever they are available.

Look at the example I put forward earlier, Butlers Tube Driver, I love mine, great preamp before the preamp, now go to his site and look at the options, one is a biasing circuit for the tube. OK according to those such as -CB- we do not need to bias a preamp tube, and I am full of jibberish, but then if such is true why have power users such as Satch, Gilmore and Johnson all bought units from Butler with the Preamp Biasing feature in it? Unless they found out the tonal differences they could crank into it with the feature. Sure, go non adjustable, but would you not rather have the option if you could?

remember, besides a signal boost, preamps are all about shaping the tone.

A great example of notgoing by the book is the Blus Jr amp by Fender, the Bias the amp tubes real hot and they go through some tubes, that is why one of the common mods to the amp is to make the bias adjustable, so guys can make their tubes to last, but once you do that then you lose a lot of the sound you bought the amp for. Yea fender biases them hot, so what, and that relates to whatr I am saying about preamp tubes because, Like the Tube Driver, if you experiment around you can get real hot sound or a real smooth sound, I drop mine off.not increase them.

 

[erogenousjones17]

I've been passively following this thread for a while (without understanding much of what's being said), and I feel compelled to point out that this sounds really dirty.

my Uberschall gets thick and massive as the gain gets close to straight up on the master

 

[Patrick from Davis]

OK according to those such as -CB- we do not need to bias a preamp tube

No, this is not true.  He is stating that the preamp tubes are cathode biased and in Class A operation.  There is a significant difference from not biasing a tube and cathode biasing a tube.
Patrick

 

[Jusatele]

Biasing a tube, in the most simplistic form is setting a voltage for the cathode.

I think the confusion here is not the biasing, but the fact that different types of tubes need to be biased in different ways for different reasons

however, a 12ax7 still is effected by biasing, and we can use this to "tune" the tube, (tune used as a laymans term understood by musicians) and that is what is causing the confusion here.

(I have read back)

You do not need to accept the parameters of the preamps designer,or the bias spec of the tube manufacturer, Remember the tube manufacturer is giving a voltage designed for max tube life, not peak performance. If we did not experiment with stuff we would not have advancements in technology, we would remain constant without experimentation.  So I want to up a bias point and I find that not only does tha tube run hotter but it breaks up earlier, I run it cooler and find that it breaks up later but has a much creamier distortion. ETC. So I remove 20 percent of the 2 stages of the preamp tubes that I am using for the tone range I want and get a round fat tone, but I need to up the area I am using to add DB to the signal so I sound as large. And it goes on.

This is nothing more than the design difference between Fender, Vox, Crate, Marshall and the rest. If they all set things the same all of the amps would sound the same.

Remember, the amplifier stage of the amp is suppose to be transparent, in other words it is not suppose to effect the tone of the guitar, all of that is done in the preamp area, A preamp takes the weak signal of the pickups and first up it to line strength so a amp can use it, but also shape the tone, how complicated the preamp is gives you more knobs to turn.

because I seem to get the ire raised whenever I talk about such, here are some expeiments and discussions
http://screamertube.blogspot.com/
http://www.shine7.com/audio/12ax7_pre.htm
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/12ax7-preamp-plate-voltage-qs-518627/

 

[Superlizard]

T00bs schm00bs... they're over-rated.

Get a SS Gorilla amp like me and then you'll have King Daddy Tone.  :laughing7:

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Biasing a tube, in the most simplistic form is setting a voltage for the cathode.

I think the confusion here is not the biasing, but the fact that different types of tubes need to be biased in different ways for different reasons

however, a 12ax7 still is effected by biasing, and we can use this to "tune" the tube, (tune used as a laymans term understood by musicians) and that is what is causing the confusion here.

I understand what biasing a tube is.  What frustrates me is you tend not to answer the questions asked, and then use specific terms in an ambiguous manner.  CB was quite detailed in his description of why the guitarist doesn't need to bias the preamp tubes.  It's because it is running in a Class A manner and comes with a cathode bias in the circuitry.  There is no need to put a variable fixed bias on the preamp tube, using the example he described.  You stated that he was wrong and that he was in over his head in this conversation.  He decided to leave the conversation.  I have spoken quite a bit with CB, and he definitely knows his stuff in the guitar amp area.  You proceeded to describe changing the fixed bias point of the preamp tube and some artists that have done that.  Most of the other questions that were brought up you answered with links.

Remember, the amplifier stage of the amp is suppose to be transparent, in other words it is not suppose to effect the tone of the guitar, all of that is done in the preamp area, A preamp takes the weak signal of the pickups and first up it to line strength so a amp can use it, but also shape the tone, how complicated the preamp is gives you more knobs to turn.

The power amp section is not supposed to affect the tone?  In theory, perhaps, for amplifiers that are not for musicians, perhaps, but for goodness sake, it has a huge effect on the tone.  A power section that has 6V6's vs one with 6550's???  There is quite a difference.  Also the argument that the preamp doesn't amplify the signal, it only gets the signal to line strength is maddening.  To amplify is to magnify, make larger, more powerful, or increase.  This is what the preamp does, you described this many times, along with other things.  But then to say the preamp doesn't amplify the signal is dizzying.

OK, I give up.  My choice on tubes currently is the Tung Sol reissues for the pre tubes, SED's for KT88's, JJ's for KT77's (price reasons,) EI for EL84's, and Tung Sol reissues for 6V6's.  There are always exceptions to what was previously stated, my opinion on what I like changes daily, and I reserve the right to change my opinion.
Patrick

 

[Death by Uberschall]

I've been passively following this thread for a while (without understanding much of what's being said), and I feel compelled to point out that this sounds really dirty.

my Uberschall gets thick and massive as the gain gets close to straight up on the master

No comment!!  :icon_jokercolor:

 

[Jusatele]

ok patrick

go with -CB- and a preamp cannot be biased, that does not bother me (and he explained why they did not need to be rebiased, not that they could not be and his argument was they could not be, I stated they could be)

and stop confusing signal with sound

you want me to explain, when I do I get ripped, so I post others explaining, whats up? Should I get ripped and get called jibberish? or post places where others are biasing preamp tubes, so I chose to post others explaining about signal.

take it from there, I am tired so here is more jibberish http://www.aikenamps.com/CommonCathode.htm

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Never once did he say a tube couldn't be biased.  He commented on the letters having a special significance to biasing, and how preamp tubes are cathode biased.  Your first sentence sounds on that last post sounds very much like a contradiction if you read it aloud.  Stop confusing a signal with sound, your argument about an amplifier makes more sense in those terms, you just never presented it.  Fact is the signal will always be just that until the signal goes to the output transformer and only when that signal goes to the speaker, in your terms.  But still the signal is amplified through out the amp, except the tone circuit, where different frequency bands are cut out according to the circuit design and resistance of the knobs.  It is then, dare I say it, amplified back to a stronger, yes, signal.  This site is a great place to find all kinds of information on the subject and more...  I couldn't help that last one.
Patrick

 

[Jusatele]

I have presented mine, I tire of this
do as you like
problem is trying to put it in terms so many will understand, If you want techno words and such, that can be arranged, but even when I post up sites with those I am told I have not argued my side,
what do you want me to do, type out long post I can just link to?
I leave you guys to it to argue all you want....
after all I noticed in a thread about a guitar dyeing that everyone went off on a discussion about amps without even asking what amp the guy had. or it's architecture. Funny how that happens, Just like this has.

 

[OzziePete]

I have presented mine, I tire of this
do as you like
problem is trying to put it in terms so many will understand, If you want techno words and such, that can be arranged, but even when I post up sites with those I am told I have not argued my side,
what do you want me to do, type out long post I can just link to?
I leave you guys to it to argue all you want....
after all I noticed in a thread about a guitar dyeing that everyone went off on a discussion about amps without even asking what amp the guy had. or it's architecture. Funny how that happens, Just like this has.

I think we all get a fair bit sidetracked on answering a single question within one post and then the Threads sometimes go off at a tangent discussing that answer... it's the nature of this Forum that our Mods sit back and allow a free form discussion to take place and we later joke about Threads being hijacked. Like this Thread.

There are very few of us who know a lot about amps. When one side of the debate on matters relating to amps is offered, it is often very hard to dispute that from a standing that most of us have, that is, that we don't know enough on the subject to participate fully. =CB=, Mayfly and a few others (yourself included) seem to have a more intricate knowledge on the subject. The reason many of us accept what =CB= and Mayfly have to say is that their credentials have been established. We do know that =CB=, for example, has done some work for Gibson and does technician work presently (correct =CB=?) while Mayfly has built his own boutique amps in a past life....Others, we are less knowledgable about - like yourself. And when someone comes on the Thread passionately advocating something like you suggest, it polarises people.

It is very hard for us who have little knowledge, to figure out who is right or wrong. It does seem tho, in this debate that was raised about preamp tubes, that it is merely a difference of opinion (although =CB= and Patrick from Davis indicate that the possibility of adjustment is simply not possible) and that makes it even harder to discern which way you'd like to lean in the debate. Maybe the issue of preamp bias adjustment is better suited for discussion in Amplifier Forums, where there is a more knowledgable demographic on the specific subject?

Stating the bleeding obvious, this is a guitar forum, and as guitar players most of us are very reluctant to start opening up covers on amps after years of serious warnings about "Don't Do THAT! Deadly Voltages inside". We just take amps to techs to 'fix up'.  :laughing7:.. I know I even got a bit nervous installing power tubes into my Evil Robot when it got delivered, lol.

 

[DangerousR6]

Well I should apologize to CB and justatele, I guess I kinda started the whole thing by saying preamp tubes don't need to be biased. Which for all practical purposes they don't, but I guess you can if you like. IDK, I'm not an expert... :icon_biggrin:

 

[Jusatele]

Dangerous, it is not your fault

I mess with stuff all the time, I cannot help it my mind just works like that. I am told by my parents I started taking things apart when I was 2 years old. I also think of stuff different than most. My lines of logic make no sense to a lot of people but I am the go to guy a lot to find out problems at work.  I get this a lot, it does not bother me.

I have posted up places here where they are using from 300 to 12 volts on 12ax7s, and still guys are trying to say I am nuts

so what, let them,