Tremelo Question

[DangerousR6]

Let me know how it works out!  :icon_thumright:

I have two more concepts, both of which call for Floyd style trems.

You know of anyone of the top of your head who sells the Gotoh's? :icon_scratch:

e-bay store search

Nice start, maybe... :icon_biggrin:

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

I've been told repeatedly by Bill Foley (Author of Build Your Own Electric Guitar available from Warmoth) that all Floyd Rose bridges are made by Schaller.  Something like Floyd worked with them early on to manufacture them, then there was the deal with Kramer, then Fender but they're all made by Schaller.  Anyone else hear this?

I insist on Original Floyd Rose tremolos, by the way.  I guess that makes me a snob! :dontknow:

Original Floyds are indeed manufactured by Schaller in Germany, as are the Schaller Floyds.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

what about kahler???

Sorry, kahler ssssssssssssssux.

Agreed about the Kahlers.  Let me say a few things.  Yes, the Floyd Speedloader will use string with the balls intact.  I prefer the OFR.  The OFR does not use the original string balls on the end.  That said, yes, you can load the strings backwards, and put the balls on the tuners.  I personally thought that was not only ugly and bulky, but you still have to cut the strings at the end to get them into the locking mechanism of the OFR, so nothing, in my mind, is gained.

Dangerous is absolutely correct about the Schaller and the reason that its tone is a bit warmer.  That said, it does have stainless knife edges for the pivot points and I believe they are replacable.  I have chosen the Schaller for certain guitars (Jacksons for which an OFR is not a direct replacement), but for anything I am building de novo, an OFR is the only way to go. 

That said, I've heard excellent things about the Gotoh Floyd.  Apparently, it is a drop in replacement for the OFR.  I know essentially nothing about it, but I've heard enough positve feedback that I'd be willing to try it.

I have the Gotoh Floyd on my main guitar.  I'll describe why I chose it then (12 years ago) & what I like about it over the OFR (12 years ago).

1st:  The Gotoh uses a non-threaded bar that just slides in ala PRS, and there is a small allen screw on the side of the collar that the bar slides into that adjusts the tension of the bar's swing.  I prefered this at the time because all of the thumbwheel bars that Floyd/Schaller & just about everyone else made seemed to have a whole lot of wiggle to them before the bar would actually move the bridge.  I felt this caused unwanted thumping noise & I didn't like that the bridge didn't move when the stick was wiggled.

This issue has since been resolved as the thumbwheeled bars of today seem to have tighter tolerances between the bar and the thumbscrew.  The bar sits where you want it without swinging around or unscrewing when you push the bar out of the way, and it does what it's supposed to do when you press or pull the bar, which is actually move the bridge instead of wigglin' there for a while first.

2:  The Gotoh had a feature in the sustain block similar to that of the Ibanez Edge.  The Ibanez Edge has a bar that sits across the back of the springs as they set into the sustain block, and this bar holds down the springs.  The Gotoh used screws that screwed into the sustain block directly nest to the spring hole.  The benefit to this is that if you pull extremely sharp ala Vai, the springs don't pop out.  While this may not be an issue to some people, this was something I encountered quite a bit with my old 80's Kramer Vanguard & an old Warmoth Strat I built in 1990.  Looking back, I felt then (12 years ago) that it was a design flaw.  I've since revised my belief to deem that it was not, as I learned a few years back that I could just crimp the legs of the tremolo springs before pressing them into the sustain block, and the tension of the crimp would keep them in there just fine.  Just a slight crimp, nothing extreme.  I don't if it will work for you or not, but it works fine for me.

3:  The fine tuners on the Gotoh are tilted back at an angle, the OFR is not.  I preferred the angle only because of my experience with the Edge tremolo.  Looking back, and having played many different Floyd styled trems over the years, I've found that this is not really an issue for my playing as I may have made it out to be.  I cannot recall one incident where I ever knocked myself out of tune by my picking hand coming in contact with the fine tuners.  Some people may, I didn't.

These findings are relative to my own experience and I in no way intend to imply that one design is better than the other, just my own preferences and opinion, that's all.

Hope it helps.

 

[DangerousR6]

what about kahler???

Sorry, kahler ssssssssssssssux.

Agreed about the Kahlers.  Let me say a few things.  Yes, the Floyd Speedloader will use string with the balls intact.  I prefer the OFR.  The OFR does not use the original string balls on the end.  That said, yes, you can load the strings backwards, and put the balls on the tuners.  I personally thought that was not only ugly and bulky, but you still have to cut the strings at the end to get them into the locking mechanism of the OFR, so nothing, in my mind, is gained.

Dangerous is absolutely correct about the Schaller and the reason that its tone is a bit warmer.  That said, it does have stainless knife edges for the pivot points and I believe they are replacable.  I have chosen the Schaller for certain guitars (Jacksons for which an OFR is not a direct replacement), but for anything I am building de novo, an OFR is the only way to go. 

That said, I've heard excellent things about the Gotoh Floyd.  Apparently, it is a drop in replacement for the OFR.  I know essentially nothing about it, but I've heard enough positve feedback that I'd be willing to try it.

I have the Gotoh Floyd on my main guitar.  I'll describe why I chose it then (12 years ago) & what I like about it over the OFR (12 years ago).

1st:  The Gotoh uses a non-threaded bar that just slides in ala PRS, and there is a small allen screw on the side of the collar that the bar slides into that adjusts the tension of the bar's swing.  I prefered this at the time because all of the thumbwheel bars that Floyd/Schaller & just about everyone else made seemed to have a whole lot of wiggle to them before the bar would actually move the bridge.  I felt this caused unwanted thumping noise & I didn't like that the bridge didn't move when the stick was wiggled.

This issue has since been resolved as the thumbwheeled bars of today seem to have tighter tolerances between the bar and the thumbscrew.  The bar sits where you want it without swinging around or unscrewing when you push the bar out of the way, and it does what it's supposed to do when you press or pull the bar, which is actually move the bridge instead of wigglin' there for a while first.

2:  The Gotoh had a feature in the sustain block similar to that of the Ibanez Edge.  The Ibanez Edge has a bar that sits across the back of the springs as they set into the sustain block, and this bar holds down the springs.  The Gotoh used screws that screwed into the sustain block directly nest to the spring hole.  The benefit to this is that if you pull extremely sharp ala Vai, the springs don't pop out.  While this may not be an issue to some people, this was something I encountered quite a bit with my old 80's Kramer Vanguard & an old Warmoth Strat I built in 1990.  Looking back, I felt then (12 years ago) that it was a design flaw.  I've since revised my belief to deem that it was not, as I learned a few years back that I could just crimp the legs of the tremolo springs before pressing them into the sustain block, and the tension of the crimp would keep them in there just fine.  Just a slight crimp, nothing extreme.  I don't if it will work for you or not, but it works fine for me.

3:  The fine tuners on the Gotoh are tilted back at an angle, the OFR is not.  I preferred the angle only because of my experience with the Edge tremolo.  Looking back, and having played many different Floyd styled trems over the years, I've found that this is not really an issue for my playing as I may have made it out to be.  I cannot recall one incident where I ever knocked myself out of tune by my picking hand coming in contact with the fine tuners.  Some people may, I didn't.

These findings are relative to my own experience and I in no way intend to imply that one design is better than the other, just my own preferences and opinion, that's all.

Hope it helps.

Kewl Tony, lots of interesting differences I wasn't aware of..... :icon_thumright:

 

[dmraco]

Not sure I understand the distaste about the Kahler product as I have played them for years and am using on on my current build.  The advantages I see are:

--easy stringing
--custom saddle adjustment- great to radius necks
--different metals availible for a wide range of tone needs
--solid mount and is not effected by heavy palm muting
--easy install
--never go out of tune
--great range...


I do agree the Kahler nut locking system sucks and am using a floyd nut on this build

Maybe it is I grew up playing kahlers but I never liked the Floyd system.  I even played some on the new guitars when selecting components for this build and the feel cheap.  Just my opinion....

 

[GoDrex]

I had a Kahler trem - - first day I had the guitar I was playing and I pulled back a little on the bar and it seemed like I broke a string. Nope - when I checked it the claw that holds the ball end actually broke off. The metal cracked in half. No Kahlers for me again. Chances of this happening again? Probably one in a million. Do I care? Nope - would probably take therapy to get past it. :tard:

 

[DangerousR6]

I had a Kahler trem - - first day I had the guitar I was playing and I pulled back a little on the bar and it seemed like I broke a string. Nope - when I checked it the claw that holds the ball end actually broke off. The metal cracked in half. No Kahlers for me again. Chances of this happening again? Probably one in a million. Do I care? Nope - would probably take therapy to get past it. :tard:

Yes Gary you probably do need therapy..... :icon_biggrin:

 

[DangerousR6]

Not sure I understand the distaste about the Kahler product as I have played them for years and am using on on my current build.  The advantages I see are:

--easy stringing
--custom saddle adjustment- great to radius necks
--different metals availible for a wide range of tone needs
--solid mount and is not effected by heavy palm muting
--easy install
--never go out of tune
--great range...


I do agree the Kahler nut locking system sucks and am using a floyd nut on this build

Maybe it is I grew up playing kahlers but I never liked the Floyd system.  I even played some on the new guitars when selecting components for this build and the feel cheap.  Just my opinion....

Picked up a guitar in a music store once with a kahler on it, the things are but ugly,and bulky looking. Wasn't impressed at all, plus I've been a Van halen fan for many many years, so naturally I gravitated to the Floyd. My first guitar with a trem was a Ibanez Roadstar, had a strat type trem. Then I bought my first Kramer with a floyd and never looked back,.
The Floyd is the shiznit...... :headbang1:

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

My very first locking trem was a Kahler 2300. I put it on my 1983 Ibanez Rocket Roll II Cherry Sunburst V to replace the OEM Hard Rocker Pro tremolo.  About a year later, I put a Flyer on a Perfomance Strat that I built, & those have been my only Kahler experiences.  Since 1985, I've been a Floyd guy.  I've had a PRS, and an old brass Mighty Might 6 hole trem, but the rest have been OFR's, & a couple of lisenced ones such as the Edge and the Gotoh.

Floyds for me forever, thank you.

 

[GoDrex]

I had a Kahler trem - - first day I had the guitar I was playing and I pulled back a little on the bar and it seemed like I broke a string. Nope - when I checked it the claw that holds the ball end actually broke off. The metal cracked in half. No Kahlers for me again. Chances of this happening again? Probably one in a million. Do I care? Nope - would probably take therapy to get past it. :tard:

Yes Gary you probably do need therapy..... :icon_biggrin:

I do need guitar therapy. Probably need to stop coming here too. I don't think it's helping.  :tard:

 

[DangerousR6]

I had a Kahler trem - - first day I had the guitar I was playing and I pulled back a little on the bar and it seemed like I broke a string. Nope - when I checked it the claw that holds the ball end actually broke off. The metal cracked in half. No Kahlers for me again. Chances of this happening again? Probably one in a million. Do I care? Nope - would probably take therapy to get past it. :tard:

Yes Gary you probably do need therapy..... :icon_biggrin:

I do need guitar therapy. Probably need to stop coming here too. I don't think it's helping.  :tard:

Why, you got G.A.S.? :icon_biggrin:

 

[GoDrex]

Yeah and a real love/hate with all guitar related stuff.

 

[DangerousR6]

Yeah and a real love/hate with all guitar related stuff.

You love it, but your pocket book hates it....... :laughing11:

 

[GoDrex]

Not just that. I hate all the problems I inevitably have. It's stress I don't enjoy.

 

[OzziePete]

When the Floyds and the Kahlers first came out in the late 70s or so, I got a Kahler installed on my el cheapo guitar.

Had a bitch of time restringing, and the darn trem arm broke off at the thread rendering the trem useless.

That experience and the mods that need to take place to a standard guitar to fit a Floyd trem - and the need to match the nut, string locking system, adjustments etc. just plain puts me off the whole idea.

If I have a trem, my preferences are for a simple Wilkinson. I don't dive bomb or yank the trem arm around too much anyways, so I doubt the extra fiddling around I 'd have to do with a Floyd wouldn't reap me any more benefits than what I'd get on a Wilko or Fender Strat OEM.

 

[misplacedsanity]

Can anyone confirm that a Gotoh Floyd Rose is a direct replacement for the original? Will it fit flush into a floyd route? And does anyone know if the sustain block is interchangeable with the floyd?

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

If I remember, I'll take my Gotoh equipped guitar to work on Monday& get the calipers out & check it out.
I'm pretty sure it's a direct retrofit.

 

[misplacedsanity]

Thanks for that man, I very much appreciate it.

 

[rightintheface]

so what's the general opinion on the ibanez edge?
i tried one a few weeks ago on a friends strat, and to be honest it's the only trem i've ever enjoyed playing. just because it was flat as hell, had no little bits that poked my hand.
anybody know what trem routing they fit into? is it just the standard floyd route?

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

As promised, I took my axe to work today & got the calipers to them.  Just compare these dimensions to what you can find on the net regarding the original floyd, such as this one; http://www.warmoth.com/hardware/bridges/pdf/Original_Floyd_Rose_Diagram.pdf
and this one; http://www.floydrose.com/originaltremolo.html



I'm not making any determinations.

Best of Luck to ya.