Trem problems that shouldn't be there.

[Hobosaur]

I posted this on another forum, but they're no help. Maybe you guys could take a swing at this?

Whenever I use my tremolo, all the strings go sharp. After I stretch them out or do a bend, they go back to normal (or flat if I retune after whammying). Especiailly the G string.

The thing is, I have Schaller locking tuners, an LSR roller nut, a boogie rail trem, and recently acquired roller saddles I got in a trade.

What the heck is going on? Am I cursed?

 

[bagman67]

I posted this on another forum, but they're no help. Maybe you guys could take a swing at this?

Whenever I use my tremolo, all the strings go sharp. After I stretch them out or do a bend, they go back to normal (or flat if I retune after whammying). Especiailly the G string.

The thing is, I have Schaller locking tuners, an LSR roller nut, a boogie rail trem, and recently acquired roller saddles I got in a trade.

What the heck is going on? Am I cursed?

It does sound like your trem is not returning to its starting point.  Have you lubricated the rail on your boogie rail trem?  Some grease there might help.  Maybe some fiddling with your spring tension, too, but I'd start with greasing the rail the next time you restring.

 

[Hobosaur]

Yeah, it's greased, and it's decked, so it has the same return point.

 

[bagman67]

Are your locking tuners indeed locked? 


Has this been recurring from one set of strings to the next?

 

[rockskate4x]

Are your locking tuners indeed locked? 


Has this been recurring from one set of strings to the next?

+1 try another set of strings. If that doesn't work, you can even try a different brand of strings. I bought a bulk pack of dean markley 10's after getting a single set that I liked. Even though the first set had no problems, almost every set in the bulk pack had finicky tuning issues no matter what I did. On top of this, the A string on most sets would remain under pitch intonation wise, even though I adjusted the saddle all the way in the "sharp" direction. I thought that the guitar was the problem (this was a brand new scratch build) but once I got switched to dunlop light top heavy bottoms, all of these issues went away. Some batches of strings are just bad for whatever reason.

 

[Hobosaur]

Yes, my locking tuners are locked. If they weren't, then it would be going flat, not sharp. The same thing has happened on two separate pairs of D'Addario 10-52s, and I've tried an ernie ball g string after the D'Addario one.

 

[Cagey]

What kind of lubrication did you use on that huge friction point that's going to resist any change in position without an overwhelming amount of force hinge? It might be worth it to remove the bridge, clean it thoroughly with something like acetone or naptha, and apply some molybdenum disulfide assembly lube (moly grease). You can get it at any well-stocked auto parts store. Generally comes in small 4oz. tubes, as you use very little of it. It's not cheap, but it's very effective and you'll not use much of it.

Another thing to consider is if it's coming back sharp and the thing is decked, the springs may be pulling much too hard. Wood is soft relative to metal of any sort, so it's not a positive return. Don't be afraid to loosen those springs bit. As long as the bridge doesn't raise its ass, you're fine. If it was me, I wouldn't rely on a hard stop at all. Float the thing. You'll have better chance of returning to a neutral point if the hinge is well-lubricated. Although, I'm suspicious of that much contact surface ever performing well. I'm sure it's an improvement on the 6-screw hilarity, but that's not saying much.

If it was me and I didn't have a whole lotta money to spend but I used the trem a lot, I'd find a way to replace that bridge with something that uses the two-point knife edge fulcrum even if it looked like shit.

 

[AutoBat]

As an owner of a boogie rail trem: I found that the petroleum jelly they recommended works for about 2 days.
Similar to Cagey's suggestion I put white lithium grease on the cam many months ago and it has been working extremely well ever since.
Next string change I'll inspect it and possibly add a touch more for maintenance.  I also put a dab on the Floyd bar because it would squeak when moving about.

I set mine up to float, then added just a little more tension to the claw so it wouldn't.

Hardware I'm using:
boogie rail bridge
Graph Tech string saver saddles
Graph Tech tusq xl nut
Schaller locking tuners

 

[Cagey]

Next string change I'll inspect it and possibly add a touch more for maintenance. 

Don't add grease, replace it. And don't just wipe the old stuff off, get a good solvent so you can clear everything off before reapplying anything fresh. Otherwise, you'll have metal particles exacerbating the problem. Leaving the old grease in place would be like changing your shorts after getting sand in them without washing the sand off your naughty bits.

 

[AutoBat]

Will do! Thank you for the advice! :headbang:

 

[Hobosaur]

Guys, trust me. It's not the boogie rail that's the trouble.

Turns out it's the boogie rail that's the trouble. I put the original 6 point back on and it works fine except for the more traditional (and subtle) tuning problems.

??? :icon_scratch: :tard: :dontknow: :doh:

 

[AutoBat]

Dang, that sucks.
Even if my boogie rail burst into flames when I used it I still wouldn't go back to the 6 point, even though I have it in a bag near my guitar stuff.

 

[Hobosaur]

Dang, that sucks.
Even if my boogie rail burst into flames when I used it I still wouldn't go back to the 6 point, even though I have it in a bag near my guitar stuff.

Eh, I'm just gonna keep it decked unless some recording in my band needs vibrato (they're all tele players).

What might be the problem with it is that the body on my guitar might be a Squier (the history of some MIM stratocasters is quite mysterious), and the trem routing doesn't quite line up. Maybe in the future if I get a body to match my neck I'll try the boogie rail again.

 

[Cagey]

It seems unlikely that it's the body, and I'm surprised to hear there are only "subtle" tuning problems with the 6 point, but you can't argue with success. If you ever end up buying another body, get away from that whole scheme altogether and buy a decent bridge. The state of the art has moved along in the last 30+ years. Best part is It won't cost you any more, and maybe even less to get caught up and improved your quality of life.

 

[ORCRiST]

It seems like this entire thread could be solved with a Floyd Rose.  :evil4:

 

[bagman67]

It seems like this entire thread could be solved with a Floyd Rose.  :evil4:

At least the Floyd a two-point arrangement, which weighs in its favor.


As for the remaining gimcrackery, well, better you than me, Orc.  :icon_jokercolor:

 

[kilbey]

Re: Boogie Rail... I have had a Boogie Rail installed for about a year now.

Why I chose it--
No more routing out holes for a wilkinson

I could attach my brass GFS block

Drop-in bar with no threads

Promised to feel smoother than the stock tremolo on my strat

It's not a Floyd

Half-off sale!

I installed it easily. I love the fact that the tone is at least as good as the stamped-metal/ six-point stock bridge. I was surprised. The aluminum seems to transfer a lot of tone to the body, despite technically having more metal than the one it replaced. Plus, I always use to put a short dowel or a set screw in the bar socket to raise the bar anyway, and I don't need to do that on this model.

I have never applied any lube (but am going to use some of that engine lube ASAP.) Regardless, I can do dive bombs with it often staying in tune, and always staying nearly in tune. When I use it normally, it stays in tune great. This is on a Squier Surf model, with the kluson-style tuners. I have replaced the nut with a Graph-Tech, and filed the slots low. I have virtually no experience with these tuners, but have been pleasantly surprised at their stability.

I have never cared for a floating tremolo, preferring the tone and stability of it laying flat on the body. I do recommend careful adjustment to make sure the springs are not over-tightened. Loosen them just to the point BEFORE it wants to float. You will have an easy-to-use, smooth tremolo.

I would recommend this tremolo to anyone. I don't use a Floyd, and never have. Their tone is just dead, in my opinion. I place a lot of value on the acoustic tone of a solid- body, as I know it makes a difference in the amplified tone. Plus, a Floyd is bulky, and I hate the feel of the string being locked at the nut. Too unyielding.

Hope this will help somebody!

Cheers-

 

[Dan025]

well if the strings go sharp after a dive that's not pivot point friction that nut/saddle friction. with pivot point friction you are more likely to fail to fully travel to the starting point leaving them flat than to over shoot it. with nut friction in a dive the strings lose tension and then bind as the tension comes up so the area from the nut to the tuner has less tension that it should and the playable part of the string has too much and this extra tension prevents the pridge from returning to zero. why you're having trouble with an lsr is beyond me but i always did question that dual ball design. seems as though it can create a pinch point to me. rather than a cradle for the string. but there are so many out there without problems it's hard for me to place blame on that. unless maybe the strings are contacting the housing somewhere like if the string tees are too close to the nut, or maybe the string trees are causing friction... 

 

[Hobosaur]

Thanks for the replies, but that thing's been lying around my workbench for months. I forgot I even had it until now!

 

[line6man]

Sounds to me like the nut is not lubricated properly, and the tension is transferring between the headstock side and neck side.