Theoretical Q on fret crowning

[WindsurfMaui]

  OK a theoretical question on fret crowning.  I really like the SS6115 frets because of the peaked crown. But I want to try some SS6100 frets on my next neck. If I have them recrowned to mimic the peak shape of the 6115 in theory the reshaping needs to only take place on one side of the fret, the side where my finger would go because the back side of the fret is never touched by our fingers when playing? Right. So reshaping the front side into a more peaked shape as long as the peak is in the center of the fret is all the work that really needs to be done? Opinions?

 

[stratamania]

If you are going to reshape a fret to essentially be the other fret just get the other fret in the first place.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

  Spock you are just too darn logical!!  :laughing7:  I would like the bigger taller frets but I think the SS6115 peak is a better shape so, again theoretically , if I were going to get the 6100's and put a peak on them in reality just one side needs to be shaped (again as long as the peak was in the middle of the fret.)

 

[stratamania]

I think you would find it very difficult to get a peak in the middle of a fret without shaping both sides. By the time you have done so you will also potentially have lost the height of the 6100s, scratched the top of them and invented several new words along the way.

Sorry if this is also too logical and I like thinking outside the box but you have to look at what will be gained. In this case I don't think you will gain anything.

 

[MarcusLA1959]

There isn't a precise way to reshape and narrow a frets peak to the point where all frets will be true. It's why when you have a fret job done. The radiusing block is used to make all the frets the same height and be trued. You'd be best off to leave the frets as is or get the frets you want on the neck. Besides, Stainless steel is incredibly tough. I don't think a luthier would take on a such a job. Attempting such a thing would butcher the neck and fret board.

 

[jay4321]

If I were to do this job I’d probably use the “safe edge” variety of the Stew Mac Z-file.

Remember first part of the this job is leveling, which if required in the first place means some fret tops will be flattened a bit. So then you’re talking about the challenge of keeping the centerpoint of the fret intact with a different crowning approach on each side of the fret. You want the front side a pyramid flat slope with the back side rounded. Then maintaining that through the polishing process. The first few grits I’d want to stay at an angle. And remember these are SS which is more work.

Over time with wear, the centerpoint of the fret would move a tiny bit back toward the nut. This is probably a negligible amount but it’s there.

Alternatively you could level as normal, and then attack the front side with a three-corner until flat, with the same sanding challenges.

Bottom line you could do it but you would need to find a very agreeable pro and expect to pay for it. You”re taking a fair amount of material away from (stainless steel) frets and essentially creating a custom wire shape on the fretboard.

Instead I’d just try to get a quality-made neck with a properly level fretboard and the 6115s n that. Having more material on the nut side of the fret won’t do anything for you.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

I'm not disagreeing with anything said so far. I'm not going to have this done, at least not for a long while. So this is all theoretical. If someone were to reshape them theoretically they would only have to shape the front of the fret wire. Am I wrong? Because once the front side is done and a peak is created the back side of the fret wire is basically there for the overall shape of the fret, height and width but not for a functional purpose. Right?

 

[WindsurfMaui]

Thanks to everyone who posted. I'm not planning on doing this which is why I kept saying it was theoretical. I just wanted to understand how frets worked. I know when I slide my finger from one fret to the next I make a certain sound. With these one sided fret shapes if I did a slide from the backside of the fret I should make a similar sound but the feel of the slide would feel different because the backside of the fret is a different shape. What other differences would occur in playing  these asymmetrical frets?

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

Without symmetrical treatment of the fret, you run the risk of the intonation line residing off center, which will adversely affect your intonation overall.

If you are trying to get a 6115 profile out of a 6100, Stew Mac's centered Z-File is the best tool, but be prepare to grind for a good long time in order to get enough material removed to attain the profile that you speak of.

If I were faced with this from a customer inquiry, I would strongly advise them that the $20 upcharge to go with the SS6115 would be their most cost effective option.  I would have some considerable labor involved to attain the desired results otherwise.

 

[TBurst Std]

  OK a theoretical question on fret crowning.  I really like the SS6115 frets because of the peaked crown. But I want to try some SS6100 frets on my next neck. If I have them recrowned to mimic the peak shape of the 6115 in theory the reshaping needs to only take place on one side of the fret, the side where my finger would go because the back side of the fret is never touched by our fingers when playing? Right. So reshaping the front side into a more peaked shape as long as the peak is in the center of the fret is all the work that really needs to be done? Opinions?

If this is want you to want venture:
1st, your thinking is totally backwards.
The purpose of a fret is to provide a different intonation point relative to your bridge (IE: a different note).
The backside (IE: facing bridge) of the fret is the most important aspect.
While I always appreciate those (as well as myself) who try to re-think the wheel. 1st understand what the wheel does.

PS: You can butcher a fret all you want on the peghead side, but mess with the bridge side. you got issues.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

  TBurst good reply. I need an education on this issue. Can you tell me or provide a link where I can learn about the bridge side of the fret and it's importance other than being symmetrical to the front or headstock side?  Thanks

Does anyone have necks with the 6100s? How/why do you like them? If I had spare money, which I never do, I would buy the cheapest neck Warmoth sells with 6100's and try re-crowning them for fun (and yes a lot of work) But instead I am trying to learn from others experience. So thanks for sharing.

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. But luckily for me at my old age my mind is still active. I have a great Warmoth neck roasted maple with an Ebony fret board. I reshaped the shaft and started to round the thumb side edge of the fret board, which always hurts my thumb, and then I started to  round the finger side edge but immediately realized that 1) the finger side never bothers my hand so why change the finger board edge on that side and 2) the bending of the high E string needs as much fret board space as possible so why remove some if I don't need it. That lead me to better understand the asymmetrical neck shapes like the SRV.  (I did the same with my roasted maple boatneck. I took more of the shoulder off on the thumb side but didn't need to on the fingerside because that side doesn't have an issue. So when I started to think about frets I wondered if asymmetrical frets could actually be a thing? If Luthier's could shape the headstock side and not touch the bridge side and maybe even charge less for their work? Just me thinking out loud.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

I have 6100's, and I like them mainly for the height.  I like to be up off of the fingerboard and this accomplishes that without a scalloped fingerboard.  This facilitates bending by being able to push off from the side of the string with little or no resistance from the fingerboard itself.  It's a personal "feel" preference.

As far as symmetry goes, you want that clean thin line on the top dead center of the fret, not to the bridge side, not to the nut side.  This will fine tune your intonation as far as the neck goes. 

 

[jay4321]

Just for fun I just tried this in a junk Ibanez neck with a three corner. There are folks better much better with that particular tool but I flattened it a hair, tried to round one and flatten the other and not screw up the line and yeah I wouldn't want to do that job that way. Also I'm not sure which way you're talking about when you say front and back side, do you mean what TBurst is saying (i.e. back side = bridge side)?

Also yes the frets may have a certain feel on slides - but then it would have a different feel sliding in the other direction. I'm sure anyone would still be basically fine if done well, but theory aside I'm still not totally clear on what advantage you see to the rounded backside. If you like the feel of 6115s half of that feel would be gone unless you're only ever contacting the fret going in one direction. If the size, 6115s are pretty tall, and probably very close to where some of my 6100s wind up after I've leveled and crowned them.

 

[jay4321]

If Luthier's could shape the headstock side and not touch the bridge side and maybe even charge less for their work? Just me thinking out loud.

No chance. First, with any leveling some of the top of the fret is sheared off flattening it, and (regardless of desired shape) you have to shape it so that only a thin point is up top where the string contacts it, and for intonation purposes that point should be dead center of the fret assuming the fret slots are in the right place. If you don't, problems. I know you may be thinking that it shouldn't matter beyond the bridge facing point but it does (this is partly also why when nut slots are cut they are done with a slight angle downward toward the headstock). Essentially don't want the string resting on or buried in too much surface area.

This would be kind of like looking to pay for half an oil change.

I need to get some pictures in here let me see if I can get some time in a little bit

 

[MarcusLA1959]

Just a thought,  but if you're wanting frets with a narrower peak. Couldn't using a set of flat-wound strings accomplish a similar feel?

 

[jay4321]

Okay so some photos just so you're familiar with the process.

So here's a trash neck I put a 6100 fret in. First thing I mark it black and then do a fake level as if it were a real job, which takes some of the top off and flattens the top surface

 

[jay4321]

So you reapply marker and then, normally, you then use whatever files approach to grind away everything without touching the absolute peak, which is easier to see with marker because it leaves a thin black line. You can hopefully see that here.

This is just raw shaping here and essentially the rest of the process would be to round and smooth the fret with finer and finer (whatever abrasives and polishes you use), but the key is the preserve that top peak because that's whats level with all the other frets. But here you need special shaping

 

[jay4321]

So grabbing the the 3 corner looking to get that angle

 

[jay4321]

Why did I apply tape? This neck is dead and I don't care about it.

So, I've never tried to go perfectly flat with this file and while I can do it, I definitely misjudged the angle here. I understand what I'm looking for but it was pretty tricky. I wish I had a four-corner square file. 

 

[WindsurfMaui]

TonyFS The picture that Warmoth supplies of the various fret wire has  definitive peak on the 6115s but the 6100 have a rounded arc that makes the top look almost flat. Is that what your 6100s look like when delivered. I guess I was lucky the neck with my 6115s came with all the frets level and so I didn't have to have anything done to them. I'm assuming if I got 6100s they would be ready to play without the need for any adjustments. I was also curious if I put 6100s on a vintage neck with a 7 1/4" radius would that allow larger bends and stop the choking out problem when bending?

Jay, yes front is toward the headstock and back is toward the bridge.  when I look at the picture of the 6100s they seem less peaked and more almost flat on the top. The arc at the top of the 6100 makes me believe the finger never gets anywhere near the top of the fret but rather it is fretted on the side of the arc so that is where the string is fretted and not near the top. I could be wrong I'm just going by the Warmoth picture.

Marcus I don't know about the flat wound strings. I am just curious because doing a re-crowning is a lot of work especially on stainless steel frets and if we could cut the work in half by just doing the front side that would be a big time saver.

Thanks again for everyone's input