Theoretical Q on fret crowning

[jay4321]

What I can say for sure is that this is a real chore.

On a normal job with my preferred tools I can crown a leveled fret into shape in 20 seconds or less, both sides. Not counting sanding and the rest, just overall shaping. My z-file is about 5-6 passes, flip it over and 5-6 passes, and done. I just need to keep generally straight, the file does most of the work, and I'm looking to take off as little fret material as is needed.

Your job, the opposite is true. I'm intentionally removing metal by hand, and need a lot more skill and control. It took a decent while to get that far and I'd say it's not much more than half of the work. Over a 22 fret guitar you're talking hours of labor-intensive work. And this was just a common nickel fret, not stainless steel.

Maybe a dremel with some kind of mini-angle grinder or chamfer bit. I would at least finish with a hard 45-degree sanding block and expect to need a small size one with the high frets.

An experienced luthier might have a better way to get there but they're doing with hand files expect ridiculous money.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

  Jay all the pics were great. I only had a problem seeing in the last post those two are unclear to me.

Maybe I have made a bad assumption. I have always assumed that all the frets types are playable as they are. That is the peak of each fret type is how the peak is supposed to be. So you see the 6150 and the 6100 have a rounded arc top while the 6115 has a more pronounced peak. I assume the 6100 & 6150's rounded peak is how they are supposed to be played and they aren't supposed to be re-crowned unless you are like me and want a different fret top. Am I wrong?

 

[WindsurfMaui]

Jay I'm unclear here. Are you saying making the soft arc of a regular 6100 fret top on;y takes 20 seconds but changing the profile to a more pointed peak takes a long time because so much metal has to be removed? I'm not sure what kind of fret tops are available through a Plek machine but assuming it could change the shape of teh fret without removing height and just taking the front shoulder down I assume that wouldn't take a lot of time at all especially if done by machine.

Which brings me to another point why hasn't anyone created a hand held machine that would reshape frets? A small machine that you would put over each fret one by one that you could program to re-crown frets. a small machine with precise laser measuring capabilities that could grind down the fret precisely, something with a small cell phone screen where you could make choices and even watch the machine as it works!! Or maybe the machine just has wifi and sends the info and picture to an app on your cell phone?

 

[jay4321]

Lot of questions in here but I'll try

If you order a neck from Warmoth the frets will be their standard rounded shape, or pyramid in the other case.

As to being level, Warmoth builds a good neck and typically does solid fret install work overall--I've seen some necks better than others but generally a very high standard. Usually to the degree that most people bolt them right on and set the guitar up. However Warmoth doesn't do fret leveling so far as I'm aware, and there are just environmental factors beyond control that can cause the need for (usually minor) leveling if you really want it setup as perfectly as it can be. Environmental factors like humidity and temperature, and wood is just unpredictable sometimes.

If you get 6100s on a 7.25 radius it will improve the fretting out problem, especially compared to small vintage frets, but without doing the radius math I think you'd want a little flatter a radius still to fully address that. 6100s with 9.5 will do it but I'm a 12R guy.

So the 6100 are round and larger and would appear to have more surface area that the string is on, but the topmost point is still a point - you're kind of talking about defining the edge of a circle a bit here, but there is one. The angle of course is much softer so fretting a note behind it will potentially roll the string over slightly more fret surface area relative to a pyramid, but you just won't care about that and it won't be much, and it depends where on the neck you are and your action. HOWEVER - if you tend to have a smoother, lighter touch you're often not fretting the note against the wood at all but the air, since the frets are tall, and more so when you fret a particular note further back from the fret.

The 6100 comes shaped. In a perfect world, no leveling would ever be needed on a new neck and the shape is fine. But when you do level you have to re-shape it into that half circle again. Likewise, if 6115s may need to be leveled and reshaped too.

A Plek is possibly the ideal tool for the job, IF it has a parameter to crown frets that are half-pyramid, half rounded. I can't imagine that's in the default options but don't know.

 

[jay4321]

As to the 20-second Z file thing, here's an exaggerated photo of a leveled fret. The Z-file I use cuts nothing on one side while two angles on the other. You then flip the file over to do the other side of the fret. This doesn't make the fret fully rounded again but it makes the work much easier from this kind of shape. And notice that the file doesn't touch the top peak. Eventually, you even up with a slightly smaller half-circle.

 

[jay4321]

Actually that's wrong, it cuts different angles on each side of the fret at the same time. Then flip the file, and it then reverses those angles. Point doesn't change though. Now, look what's going on with how much has to come off yours.

 

[jay4321]

I don't think I can look at this any more ways, cleaned up the angle and polished up a bit. Running my fingers back and forth up and down the neck over it even somewhat slowly I can't really tell which side is which, I just sort of feel the overall mass of the fret, and that's with strings out of the way. If I stop and or go super slow to feel the fret up then I can, but obviously that's not what you're doing when playing guitar. My hands-on .02, it's a lot more work with no benefit.

But, wouldn't you know after all that I found that someone already makes them and not too far off the size you'd want, up to .110, albeit in Nnickel. I would look around for other premade fretwire in steel if you just gotta, but again I'd say nah.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

Jay thanks for doing all that work. What I was thinking of was jpg # 2 where one side gets done and the other side is flat to rounded. But I would settle for jpg #3 as well. The jpg in the last email that had the pyramid is too much work I could settle for jpg #3. That seems to solve the problem.

A long time ago I worked for a start up automobile insurance company in a place where the rates were set by the government so the only way to distinguish yourself from all the other more established companies is to provide better service. The way to provide better service is to question everything you do and see if there is a better way to do it. So when I'm looking at a guitar, or almost anything else, I am asking is there is a better way to do this. An answer "this is the way we always did it" is an unacceptable answer.  :icon_scratch:

 

[WindsurfMaui]

That is a good find. Someone else thought there was a better way to solve the problem. I was just thinking I would have to go to the fret wire makers and ask them to make a super sized 6115. I will look at that website to see why they feel that design is a help to a guitar player. Thanks.

 

[stratamania]

The asymmetric fret wire I just took a look at. The idea is that the trimmed side goes towards the bridge to allow more or freer string vibration and the normal side allows you to slide comfortably. Seems the opposite way around to what Mr Maui was thinking.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

  OK I have to admit it, I definitely have fret envy. My first Warmoth neck was years ago and had 6150 frets which were then considered medium Jumbo. So when I bought another neck a couple of years ago I got 6150's again. And I don't know why but they seemed small even though they were the right measurements. So the next neck that was custom made I went up to the SS6115 because I liked the larger size and the peaked crown. And for the last year they were great but now I want bigger. 6100s. And I almost convinced myself that 6115s are the right ones for me until last night when I watched a Youtube video  of SRV playing with Albert King and the size of the frets on Stevie's #1 looked huge. I couldn't believe how big they looked. Now according to my search online those are the Dunlop 6100's which are actually smaller than the current Warmoth 6100s but I think the next neck is going to have to have 6100s!! Irrational I know just pure fret envy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZL2b4O3nz8

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

Perhaps a pic of your fretting hand on your primary fretboard might give some perspective, but at the end of the day, it's still purely subjective.
I have thin fingers at average length and I prefer 6100's, but on my Ibanez FRG-7620 that comes with Ibanez's stock fretwork size of less than 6100's, I just scalloped from the 12th fret up to assist with bends & such.  This was an alternative to doing a complete fret replacement, which I can do, but just felt like having a neck in my arsenal that is scalloped.

If you can have the fretwire you want installed during the build, then I think that the 6115 or 6100 is perfect.  I like the 6115 because it's already quite crowned and removes some of the professional setup work for me.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

  My fingers aren't that long but they are very boney without a lot of flesh so I have trouble  getting a clean fret on all the strings in a bar chord. At least that is my excuse. I also prefer  1 3/4" nut width when I can get it. But it isn't offered on the 24 3/4" conversion necks which is my next order once I get my act together.  I just want massive frets. But unless there is a high fret I don't plan on doing any fret dressing. I will just  screw on the neck and play. Maybe I was lucky on my last eck with the 6115s because it came perfect without a high fret.

On another issue I was doing a filter search of showcase necks and when I went to put in the conversion 24 3/4 neck I saw they had an option for a 25" neck , which surprised me because I didn't think Warmoth offered a 25" neck. I did a search for it and it didn't find any in the showcase so does Warmoth produce 25" necks?

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

  My fingers aren't that long but they are very boney without a lot of flesh so I have trouble  getting a clean fret on all the strings in a bar chord. At least that is my excuse. I also prefer  1 3/4" nut width when I can get it. But it isn't offered on the 24 3/4" conversion necks which is my next order once I get my act together.  I just want massive frets. But unless there is a high fret I don't plan on doing any fret dressing. I will just  screw on the neck and play. Maybe I was lucky on my last eck with the 6115s because it came perfect without a high fret.

On another issue I was doing a filter search of showcase necks and when I went to put in the conversion 24 3/4 neck I saw they had an option for a 25" neck , which surprised me because I didn't think Warmoth offered a 25" neck. I did a search for it and it didn't find any in the showcase so does Warmoth produce 25" necks?

The 25” neck is the 7 string only.