The ORDER of the Phoenix

[stratamania]

So I should running the Chorus pedal through the effects loop, but run the Reverb pedal through the main input in front of the head...

Stupid question #2.  How do I hook stuff up to the effects loop?  There are two jacks in the rear of the head, a "Send" jack and "Return" jack.  What do I need to do with those, and I'm also assuming I wanna use SPEAKER cable, NOT a guitar cable, right?

#1 Chorus and reverb are both time based effects and are both better in the FX loop. This is generally true for most time based effects.

# 2.  Send is the output of the preamp, and return is the input of the power amp in most FX loops on amps.

The signal comes out of send into the input of an effect then the output of the effect or chain of effects goes into the return of the FX loop which is the input of the power amp. Instrument or guitar cables are used here. a speaker cable is for between the output of the power amp and the speaker not for effects loops.

So let's say you have Guitar to Wah, overdrive and distortion, then into the input of the amp which is the input to the preamp, the pedals in front of the amp and the preamp channel or channels create gain etc and bass, middle, treble. The signal then comes out of the preamp normally to the power amp, but if an FX loop is in use then the signal goes out of send to the time based effects, delay, chorus, reverb and then to the power amp as described in the answer to #2.

The reason you want the gain and overdrive before the preamp and the time based effects after it is that normally distorted tones sound better when treated with delay than the other way around which may sound odd.

Hope that helps.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

If it was me I would run the chorus and reverb both after the preamp, so IN the effects loop, chorus first and reverb second.

So it would go like this:

Guitar
(any effects before the amp, eg wah)
Main Amp input (preamp)
FX Send
Chorus
Reverb
FX Return
(power amp)


You just use normal guitar cables for the FX loop, the signal isn't very powerful yet as it hasn't gone through the power amp.

Okay, I'm confused now.  By running IN the effects loop, that will put the effects in BEFORE the preamp, or after?  Anything running out the front of the head where the guitar plugs into it would be AFTER the preamp, right?  I'm not following the "order" of how everything works.  :tard:

How do I hook things into the effects loop?  In other words, which jacks do I use on the pedals to plug into the "Send" and which ones do I plug into the "Return?"  Could you post a pic of how I connect everything?  :help:

 

[TBurst Std]

Anything between your guitar and your amp input is Before the Preamp
Anything in your amp's Effects Loop is After the Preamp

For effects NOT between your guitar and amp

cable out of Effects Loop Send to your input of your effect
cable out of your effect goes to Effect Loop Return

Does that help?

 

[Cagey]

There are two main sections to a guitar amp: the preamp (preliminary amplifier) and the power amp.

Generally, the guitar (a very weak signal) plugs into the preamp via the front panel. The preamp amplifies the signal to a useful level, and may have some tone controls or special effects like reverb or tremolo to filter/shape the signal, then sends that to the power amplifier section. The power amp gets the signal large enough to drive a speaker.

An effects loop is generally electrically located between the preamp and the power amp. Physically, it's usually a couple connectors on the back of the amp chassis. So, you'll have one connector that'll say "Preamp Out" or "Effects Send", and another that'll say "Power Amp In" or "Effects Return".

So, signal flow looks like Guitar->Effects->Preamp->Effects Loop->Power Amp->Speaker

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Anything between your guitar and your amp input is Before the Preamp
Anything in your amp's Effects Loop is After the Preamp

For effects NOT between your guitar and amp

cable out of Effects Loop Send to your input of your effect
cable out of your effect goes to Effect Loop Return

Does that help?

So on my pedals, I would want to plug the OUTPUT into the Loop Effects SEND and the INPUT on my pedal into the Loop Effects RETURN?

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

There are two main sections to a guitar amp: the preamp (preliminary amplifier) and the power amp.

Generally, the guitar (a very weak signal) plugs into the preamp via the front panel. The preamp amplifies the signal to a useful level, and may have some tone controls or special effects like reverb or tremolo to filter/shape the signal, then sends that to the power amplifier section. The power amp gets the signal large enough to drive a speaker.

An effects loop is generally electrically located between the preamp and the power amp. Physically, it's usually a couple connectors on the back of the amp chassis. So, you'll have one connector that'll say "Preamp Out" or "Effects Send", and another that'll say "Power Amp In" or "Effects Return".

So, signal flow looks like Guitar->Effects->Preamp->Effects Loop->Power Amp->Speaker

Ah, okay!  You actually posted as I was replying to the last person.  So I plug the OUTPUT on my pedal into the SEND in the Effects Loop, and the INPUT on my pedal into the RETURN on the Effects Loop?

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Okay, I'm confused now.  By running IN the effects loop, that will put the effects in BEFORE the preamp, or after?  Anything running out the front of the head where the guitar plugs into it would be AFTER the preamp, right?  I'm not following the "order" of how everything works.  :tard:

How do I hook things into the effects loop?  In other words, which jacks do I use on the pedals to plug into the "Send" and which ones do I plug into the "Return?"  Could you post a pic of how I connect everything?  :help:

OK:

Imagine that you use a custom rack rig that consists of a preamp unit, a separate power amp, and a cabinet. (An example rig might look like this)  These are the connections you would expect each component to have (numbered for use later):

Preamp
1. Guitar IN
[there will be a gain control, and EQ controls on the preamp]
2. Signal OUT - this is the end of the preamp - at this point the signal has been amplified, dirtied up with gain, and EQ'd by the preamp.

Power amp
3. Signal IN - takes a signal ready for amplification
[the power amp probably has no EQ controls, but might have a "master volume" control to control the level of amplification]
4. Signal OUT - now the signal is LOUD but sounds broadly the same as the signal it got in. It's colored slightly but ignore that for our purposes.

Speaker
5. Signal IN - takes a signal powerful enough to move the speaker and create audible sound

---

Firstly let's do a straight, FX-less rig with this. We plug a guitar into 1. Then we plug a guitar cable from 2 to 3, thus connecting the output of the preamp to the input of the power amp. Finally we connect 4 to 5 with a speaker cable, which can handle the increased power resulting from the power amp. Strum the guitar and wahey, out comes a nice noise.

Now let's say we want to add a Wah pedal. Fine, easy - we plug the guitar into the wah, and then the output of the wah into 1. And off we go, nice wah effect. The wah is BETWEEN the guitar and the preamp.

Now we're going to add reverb. The point of reverb is to give the illusion that the amp is in a large space. We want the reverb to act on the actual sound we've dialled in - the AMP sound, not just the guitar sound. So first, we disconnect 2 from 3. Now we connect 2 to the input of our reverb unit. Finally, we connect the output of the reverb unit to 3. Now the full sound of the amp has reverb applied to it, and is ready to be brought up to full listening level by the power amp. The reverb is BETWEEN the preamp and the power amp.

---

In a typical head, the preamp and power amp are in the same box. The input on the front of the amp is connection 1. Internally, 2 is already connected to 3. If the amp doesn't have an FX loop then that is just how it works and it stays like that.

If however your amp has an FX loop, then FX Send is connection 2, and FX Return is connection 3. There's probably a clever switch in there so that if there's nothing plugged into these sockets, then 2 and 3 are just connected internally as if the loop wasn't there.

So our strategy would be the same. Wah plugged straight into the guitar and then to the front amp input, and reverb wired in between FX Send and FX return - FX Send wired to reverb INPUT, reverb OUTPUT wired to FX Return. Speakers connected as normal.

Does that make things clearer?

[Modulation FX (chorus, flange, phase) sound different depending on where you put them. EVH had his phaser before the preamp, whereas lush 80s chorus is probably in the FX loop. Some people even have two copies of the same pedal in both locations because of the different sounds achieved]

 

[Cagey]

So I plug the OUTPUT on my pedal into the SEND in the Effects Loop, and the INPUT on my pedal into the RETURN on the Effects Loop?

No. The "Send" jack is, oddly enough, sending signal out. It's an output. From the preamp.

The "Return" jack is waiting for signal to come back. It's an input. To the Power Amp.

So, you would send signal to an effect's (say, a delay pedal) input (where you'd normally plug the guitar), and the effect's output would return signal to the "Return" input. 

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

So I plug the OUTPUT on my pedal into the SEND in the Effects Loop, and the INPUT on my pedal into the RETURN on the Effects Loop?

No. The "Send" jack is, oddly enough, sending signal out. It's an output. From the preamp.

The "Return" jack is waiting for signal to come back. It's an input. To the Power Amp.

So, you would send signal to an effect's (say, a delay pedal) input (where you'd normally plug the guitar), and the effect's output would return signal to the "Return" input.

So I wanna plug the INPUT on a pedal into the RETURN and and the OUTPUT on a pedal to the SEND?

 

[bagman67]

Nope. 


The order is: 


SEND ->  Pedal INPUT -> Pedal OUTPUT -> RETURN.


The loop SENDs a signal that needs to be processed, and the signal RETURNs to be further amplified in the power stage.


IGB

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Nope. 


The order is: 


SEND ->  Pedal INPUT -> Pedal OUTPUT -> RETURN.


The loop SENDs a signal that needs to be processed, and the signal RETURNs to be further amplified in the power stage.


IGB

Okay, so lemme get this straight...

1.  Plug a guitar cord into the SEND on the back of the head.

2.  Plug the other side of that cord into the INPUT on the pedal.

3.  Plug another guitar cord into the OUTPUT on the pedal.

4.  Plug the other side of the cord running from the pedal's OUTPUT into the RETURN jack on the back of the head.

Okay, what if I want more than one effect in the loop?  Would I go SEND > Pedal 1 INPUT > Pedal 2 INPUT > Pedal 2 OUTPUT > RETURN?

 

[bagman67]

Nope. 


The order is: 


SEND ->  Pedal INPUT -> Pedal OUTPUT -> RETURN.


The loop SENDs a signal that needs to be processed, and the signal RETURNs to be further amplified in the power stage.


IGB

Okay, so lemme get this straight...

1.  Plug a guitar cord into the SEND on the back of the head.

2.  Plug the other side of that cord into the INPUT on the pedal.

3.  Plug another guitar cord into the OUTPUT on the pedal.

4.  Plug the other side of the cord running from the pedal's OUTPUT into the RETURN jack on the back of the head.

Okay, what if I want more than one effect in the loop?  Would I go SEND > Pedal 1 INPUT >  Pedal 2 INPUT > Pedal 2 OUTPUT > RETURN?

Yep, exactly, but I've added the missing link just to be precise:


SEND > Pedal 1 INPUT > Pedal 1 OUTPUT >  Pedal 2 INPUT > Pedal 2 OUTPUT > RETURN

 

[Patrick from Davis]

One of the reasons for putting the "time" based effects after the pre amp section is that the effect will have an odd treatment to the signal.  If you imagine a sine wave as you tone, and then you add a chorus, you will see a second wave (a delay) and it will modulate back and forth from the original sine wave.  This is more or less what a chorus does.  It is a very small (millisecond) delay so it sounds as if there are more than one instrument.  A reverb is similar, but the delay is longer and the signal decay makes it sound like the sound waves from the amp are being reflected back at you from a wall in a large room.  An echo or delay is and even longer delay, and you can control the number of delays and their level to have all kinds of neato effects, like "Run like Hell," by Pink Floyd. 

The preamp of you amp on the dirty channel has the signal gain cranked up.  So the amplitude of the sine wave is very large.  When this gets to the next tube, the sine wave is too tall for the tube to reproduce, so it clips it, making the sine wave appear to be a square wave (lots of things happen, but let's keep it simple)  The square wave is the distorted tone you hear. 

If you have a reverb or an echo, with a signal decay, the first wave will get clipped and sound dirty, but the next waves are less, so they get clipped less, and it sounds, odd.  Reverbs clean up with time, less clipping, but we are used to hearing the dirty tone stay dirty in a large room.  So it can be an undesirable effect of the placement of the effect.

At the effects loop, the signal, clipped or not, is at a certain useable strength in the amp.  If there is nothing in the effects loop, it will go to the master volume and the power section will make it ready for the speakers.  If you add the reverb or echo here, the signal amplitude is not trying to over power the next tube, it is standardized at this point.  So the signal going into the effect will be modulated and delayed by the effect, and then this is passed to the powersection.  But you don't get the change in dirty, because the dirty has already happened, and the effect is just multiplying the signal.

As I understand it, this is a generalized reasoning for why people tend to use the rule of thumb for putting time based effects in the effects loop.  However, I still like my chorus ahead of the dirty section, because it has that very 80's sound.  So there are no hard and fast rules, just reasonings for why things sound the way they do.  Sorry if that is a repeat of anything said earlier, I got on a roll.
Patrick

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

One of the reasons for putting the "time" based effects after the pre amp section is that the effect will have an odd treatment to the signal.  If you imagine a sine wave as you tone, and then you add a chorus, you will see a second wave (a delay) and it will modulate back and forth from the original sine wave.  This is more or less what a chorus does.  It is a very small (millisecond) delay so it sounds as if there are more than one instrument.  A reverb is similar, but the delay is longer and the signal decay makes it sound like the sound waves from the amp are being reflected back at you from a wall in a large room.  An echo or delay is and even longer delay, and you can control the number of delays and their level to have all kinds of neato effects, like "Run like Hell," by Pink Floyd. 

The preamp of you amp on the dirty channel has the signal gain cranked up.  So the amplitude of the sine wave is very large.  When this gets to the next tube, the sine wave is too tall for the tube to reproduce, so it clips it, making the sine wave appear to be a square wave (lots of things happen, but let's keep it simple)  The square wave is the distorted tone you hear. 

If you have a reverb or an echo, with a signal decay, the first wave will get clipped and sound dirty, but the next waves are less, so they get clipped less, and it sounds, odd.  Reverbs clean up with time, less clipping, but we are used to hearing the dirty tone stay dirty in a large room.  So it can be an undesirable effect of the placement of the effect.

At the effects loop, the signal, clipped or not, is at a certain useable strength in the amp.  If there is nothing in the effects loop, it will go to the master volume and the power section will make it ready for the speakers.  If you add the reverb or echo here, the signal amplitude is not trying to over power the next tube, it is standardized at this point.  So the signal going into the effect will be modulated and delayed by the effect, and then this is passed to the powersection.  But you don't get the change in dirty, because the dirty has already happened, and the effect is just multiplying the signal.

As I understand it, this is a generalized reasoning for why people tend to use the rule of thumb for putting time based effects in the effects loop.  However, I still like my chorus ahead of the dirty section, because it has that very 80's sound.  So there are no hard and fast rules, just reasonings for why things sound the way they do.  Sorry if that is a repeat of anything said earlier, I got on a roll.
Patrick

Hey, don't worry about it, all the help has been great, I appreciate ALL the explanations! ccasion14:

Nope. 


The order is: 


SEND ->  Pedal INPUT -> Pedal OUTPUT -> RETURN.


The loop SENDs a signal that needs to be processed, and the signal RETURNs to be further amplified in the power stage.


IGB

Okay, so lemme get this straight...

1.  Plug a guitar cord into the SEND on the back of the head.

2.  Plug the other side of that cord into the INPUT on the pedal.

3.  Plug another guitar cord into the OUTPUT on the pedal.

4.  Plug the other side of the cord running from the pedal's OUTPUT into the RETURN jack on the back of the head.

Okay, what if I want more than one effect in the loop?  Would I go SEND > Pedal 1 INPUT >  Pedal 2 INPUT > Pedal 2 OUTPUT > RETURN?

Yep, exactly, but I've added the missing link just to be precise:


SEND > Pedal 1 INPUT > Pedal 1 OUTPUT >  Pedal 2 INPUT > Pedal 2 OUTPUT > RETURN

Awesome!  I'm gonna go try this tonight!

 

[AndyG]

Although this has basically been stated in other replies, the general rule of thumb is that you always put gain-based effects before time-based effects.
For example, if you use a compressor and an overdrive, you would want to compress the guitar's signal first.  Doing it the other way around would still work if you want that uber-compressed 90's metal sound.  An EQ pedal (also gain-based) can work anywhere in that chain ... you just have to think whether you want to EQ the distorted signal, or distort the EQ'ed signal.

To continue the example using and overdrive (gain-based) and a chorus (time-based), you would want to chorus the distorted signal rather than distort the chorused signal ... the chorus effect is much more pronounced that way.

In terms of the order of time based effects; again the general rule would be chorus or flanger - delay - reverb.  You can think of what each pedal does to the signal, then what each subsequent pedal adds to it.  If you're running delay and reverb, it's "cleaner" to reverb the delayed signal rather than delay the reverbed signal ... if you follow my logic.  However, you can get some unique sounds by putting the pedals in the "wrong" order ... you just have to be sure those unique sounds are the ones you want!

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Although this has basically been stated in other replies, the general rule of thumb is that you always put gain-based effects before time-based effects.
For example, if you use a compressor and an overdrive, you would want to compress the guitar's signal first.  Doing it the other way around would still work if you want that uber-compressed 90's metal sound.  An EQ pedal (also gain-based) can work anywhere in that chain ... you just have to think whether you want to EQ the distorted signal, or distort the EQ'ed signal.

To continue the example using and overdrive (gain-based) and a chorus (time-based), you would want to chorus the distorted signal rather than distort the chorused signal ... the chorus effect is much more pronounced that way.

In terms of the order of time based effects; again the general rule would be chorus or flanger - delay - reverb.  You can think of what each pedal does to the signal, then what each subsequent pedal adds to it.  If you're running delay and reverb, it's "cleaner" to reverb the delayed signal rather than delay the reverbed signal ... if you follow my logic.  However, you can get some unique sounds by putting the pedals in the "wrong" order ... you just have to be sure those unique sounds are the ones you want!

Okay, I tried running my Chorus and Reverb into the effects loop.  I like the way the Chorus sounds in it, but the sound of the Reverb made my ears (and nearly my eyes...) bleed.  It sounded more like crashing symbols than any sort of "reverb."  It was the most horrific sound I've ever heard come from an amplifier.  I pulled the Reverb from the effects loop, and all was well.  :hello2:

Here's my current setup:

Effects Loop- Super Chorus

From the Head- Wah > Reverb > Guitar

 

[drewski]

does your amp have reverb built in?

 

[Jumble Jumble]

That does sound very odd indeed. Like the reverb was turned up to the maximum.

Amps with built in reverb always have the reverb after the preamp (so, effectively in the FX loop). And of course they all sound fine.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

-wrong thread-

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

does your amp have reverb built in?

No built-in Reverb.  When I ran the Reverb pedal through the effects loop, all I got was a crashing sound that was basically devoid of any sort of echoing effect from a guitar.  I ran the Super Chorus first, then the Reverb.