The ORDER of the Phoenix

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Okay, here's a strange one.  I dunno if it's a "placebo" effect, or there's more to this. 

When it comes to pedals, does it matter which order they are in?  For some reason, I feel like I got a different tone when I had my pedals running in a different order.  I tried running Head > Chorus > Reverb > Wah > Guitar and it seemed like I had a different tone than when I ran Head > Reverb > Chorus > Wah > Guitar.  All the settings on the pedals were the same.

Am I crazy, or does the order of pedals affect your overall tone?

 

[Cagey]

Absolutely. Not your imagination at all.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Absolutely. Not your imagination at all.

Okay, thanks, Cagey!

Why does that happen?  If the same pedals are hooked up with the same settings, why does the order matter?

 

[dmraco]

Simple.  I will use just two pedals you have.  Putting a reverb and a chorus will give you a completely different sound that the other way around.  One pedal is modifying the tone (chorus) the other is extending it (Reverb).  So do you want to extend the chorus or chorus the reverb.  The difference are subtle but notable.  Things can really get funky when you start adding a delay and changing the order.

Rule of thumb is most folks put the wah as the 1st pedal in the chain, so the guitar plugs directly into that.  That will get you the most our of your wah.  However, there is no real right/wrong way to do it.  Just look at the set up The Edge from U2 has.  IT WILL BLOW YOUR MIND!!!!

To make things even more complex, some amps use effects loops.  These have advantages to.  Some people love them, others can live without them.  I run a loop but keep my wah and boost pedal out of the loop chain.  That is how a prefer my tone. 

 

[AutoBat]

Each pedal affects the one after it.  I can easily see how it would seem that A+B+C+D+E=X and the order of A,B,C,D,E wouldn't matter, but it does.
Even something simple like just using an echo & delay and reversing them alters the end sound.
I'm not able to explain exactly *why* this happens, just that it does.

tl;dr: yes, and i don't know why.

 

[Cagey]

Different pedals have different input and output impedances, so they mix/match up in different ways. Some types of pedals have a time component to them, so you can run into phase emphasis/cancellation interactions, or in extreme cases like with delays you may send more than one signal to a following effect that is going through a timed sequence of its own, such as phaser or flanger. Things like that.

There's a short article on effects order here you might want to read.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Different pedals have different input and output impedances, so they mix/match up in different ways. Some types of pedals have a time component to them, so you can run into phase emphasis/cancellation interactions, or in extreme cases like with delays you may send more than one signal to a following effect that is going through a timed sequence of its own, such as phaser or flanger. Things like that.

There's a short article on effects order here you might want to read.

Good read!  Thanks!

Simple.  I will use just two pedals you have.  Putting a reverb and a chorus will give you a completely different sound that the other way around.  One pedal is modifying the tone (chorus) the other is extending it (Reverb).  So do you want to extend the chorus or chorus the reverb.  The difference are subtle but notable.  Things can really get funky when you start adding a delay and changing the order.

Rule of thumb is most folks put the wah as the 1st pedal in the chain, so the guitar plugs directly into that.  That will get you the most our of your wah.  However, there is no real right/wrong way to do it.  Just look at the set up The Edge from U2 has.  IT WILL BLOW YOUR MIND!!!!

To make things even more complex, some amps use effects loops.  These have advantages to.  Some people love them, others can live without them.  I run a loop but keep my wah and boost pedal out of the loop chain.  That is how a prefer my tone.

My head has an effects loop.  Unfortunately, I haven't the slightest what it is, what it does, or how it works. :tard:  I just plug right through the front of my head.

 

[dmraco]

In general, time related pedals and reverbs work best in the loop.  For example, it you have a two channel (gain/clean) head, reverb levels increase dramatically when switching from clean to gain.  This happens significantly on hi gain amps.  Both my Mesa and Orange effect the reverb when switching channels.  This is eliminated with the effects loop.  I believe the way it works is it puts the pedals in the system AFTER the pre amp so the tone is not effected by the preamp section.  I'm some cases you may prefer the pedals before the preamp, like a gain or wah pedal. 

I would think your phase and reverb would serve you better in the loop.

Good luck.  What type of amp are you running??

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Different pedals have different input and output impedances, so they mix/match up in different ways. Some types of pedals have a time component to them, so you can run into phase emphasis/cancellation interactions, or in extreme cases like with delays you may send more than one signal to a following effect that is going through a timed sequence of its own, such as phaser or flanger. Things like that.

There's a short article on effects order here you might want to read.

Good read!  Thanks!

Simple.  I will use just two pedals you have.  Putting a reverb and a chorus will give you a completely different sound that the other way around.  One pedal is modifying the tone (chorus) the other is extending it (Reverb).  So do you want to extend the chorus or chorus the reverb.  The difference are subtle but notable.  Things can really get funky when you start adding a delay and changing the order.

Rule of thumb is most folks put the wah as the 1st pedal in the chain, so the guitar plugs directly into that.  That will get you the most our of your wah.  However, there is no real right/wrong way to do it.  Just look at the set up The Edge from U2 has.  IT WILL BLOW YOUR MIND!!!!

To make things even more complex, some amps use effects loops.  These have advantages to.  Some people love them, others can live without them.  I run a loop but keep my wah and boost pedal out of the loop chain.  That is how a prefer my tone.

My head has an effects loop.  Unfortunately, I haven't the slightest what it is, what it does, or how it works. :tard:  I just plug right through the front of my head.

The effects loop is simply a space between the preamp and power section of your amp.  Putting effects before (in front of the amp) the fx loop or in it (after the eq section) yields different effects.  Also, you can really trick things up by using each section separately, but beware running the pre section without a load on the power section of a tube amp.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

The effects loop is simply a space between the preamp and power section of your amp.  Putting effects before (in front of the amp) the fx loop or in it (after the eq section) yields different effects.  Also, you can really trick things up by using each section separately, but beware running the pre section without a load on the power section of a tube amp.

What do you mean by "beware of running the pre-section without a load on the power section of a tube amp?"

In general, time related pedals and reverbs work best in the loop.  For example, it you have a two channel (gain/clean) head, reverb levels increase dramatically when switching from clean to gain.  This happens significantly on hi gain amps.  Both my Mesa and Orange effect the reverb when switching channels.  This is eliminated with the effects loop.  I believe the way it works is it puts the pedals in the system AFTER the pre amp so the tone is not effected by the preamp section.  I'm some cases you may prefer the pedals before the preamp, like a gain or wah pedal. 

I would think your phase and reverb would serve you better in the loop.

Good luck.  What type of amp are you running??

Ah, okay.  How would I go about hooking everything up through the loop so I can try it out?

 

[bagman67]

The effects loop is simply a space between the preamp and power section of your amp.  Putting effects before (in front of the amp) the fx loop or in it (after the eq section) yields different effects.  Also, you can really trick things up by using each section separately, but beware running the pre section without a load on the power section of a tube amp.

What do you mean by "beware of running the pre-section without a load on the power section of a tube amp?"

It means run the amp into a speaker or a dummy load so you don't reproduce the same problem that got this amp trashed in the first place.


bagman

 

[Cagey]

Incidentally, I happen to be working on a Rivera Venus 6 amp at the moment and needed a load, so I bought a dummy from Parts Express that looks like this...

Nice little part. 8 ohms, 100 watts, well-built - you could use that on just about any amp. Solder a 1/4" phone plug to the leads and you're good to go.

Parts Express' website leaves something to be desired, but you can buy the part at the same price via Amazon and Parts Express fulfils the order.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

The effects loop is simply a space between the preamp and power section of your amp.  Putting effects before (in front of the amp) the fx loop or in it (after the eq section) yields different effects.  Also, you can really trick things up by using each section separately, but beware running the pre section without a load on the power section of a tube amp.

What do you mean by "beware of running the pre-section without a load on the power section of a tube amp?"

It means run the amp into a speaker or a dummy load so you don't reproduce the same problem that got this amp trashed in the first place.


bagman

Simple enough, and YES, I have a speaker hooked up to the head, unlike my dumbass friend did...

 

[dmraco]

Ah, okay.  How would I go about hooking everything up through the loop so I can try it out?

here is an over simplification.  You can see this set up has a few pedals in the "front" of the amp.  The other is in the loop.  IF you have multiple pedals, string them together in the order you desire and put them in the loop.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Ah, okay.  How would I go about hooking everything up through the loop so I can try it out?

here is an over simplification.  You can see this set up has a few pedals in the "front" of the amp.  The other is in the loop.  IF you have multiple pedals, string them together in the order you desire and put them in the loop.

Thanks for that! 

So, basically by adding into the effects loop would be sort of like modifying the "natural" sound of the amp prior to the effects (pedals) modifying the sound?  Are you understanding what I'm trying to say?

 

[dmraco]

no.  Does not effect amp.  It simply does not run the pedals thru the pre amp.  Just try it out.  It your amp has a good loop you will really hear the difference.

What amp are you running??

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Think of the preamp section of an amp as an EQ pedal.  The fx loop allows you to put the effects after the EQ instead of in front of it.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

One thing I really, really notice about order of effects is this:

1. Reverb -> Distortion pedal:

When you turn the distortion pedal on, the reverb needs to be turned down, because the distortion pedal is making the reflection portion of the sound louder and it sounds mushy and bad.

2. Distortion -> reverb
Switching the distortion on and off sounds fine, the reverb level stays constant as it's being applied after the distortion.

Now, let's say I don't use a distortion pedal - I'm using distortion on my amp. This distortion happens in the preamp. If I run a reverb pedal in through the main amp input, then I have a similar problem to my first example above. Altering the gain on the preamp (or perhaps switching channel on the amp) will affect the reverb.

If I put the reverb in the effects loop then it comes after the preamp, so after the distortion - just like my second example. Sounds way better.

The same goes for delay - set up a nice quiet single repeat and it sounds fine, but if you run distortion (either in pedal or amp form) after it, then the repeat gets louder and needs turning down. So delay is another one that should go after distortion, after the preamp.

I feel like reverb and delay are the two where it's absolutely essential to get in after the preamp if you can. With chorus and other modulation, it's really up to you - it just sounds different if you distort the chorus to if you apply chorus to existing distortion. Just see which you like best.

Once I had a channel-switching amp with no FX loop. I programmed my multi-fx unit (a Boss GT10 I think it was) such that whenever it switched channels on the amp, it also dropped the volume on any reverb or delay that existed in the patch. That worked quite nicely but it was a pain to set up.

In the end of course it is up to you. You might simply find a sound you love, so stick with that and ignore us!

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

One thing I really, really notice about order of effects is this:

1. Reverb -> Distortion pedal:

When you turn the distortion pedal on, the reverb needs to be turned down, because the distortion pedal is making the reflection portion of the sound louder and it sounds mushy and bad.

2. Distortion -> reverb
Switching the distortion on and off sounds fine, the reverb level stays constant as it's being applied after the distortion.

Now, let's say I don't use a distortion pedal - I'm using distortion on my amp. This distortion happens in the preamp. If I run a reverb pedal in through the main amp input, then I have a similar problem to my first example above. Altering the gain on the preamp (or perhaps switching channel on the amp) will affect the reverb.

If I put the reverb in the effects loop then it comes after the preamp, so after the distortion - just like my second example. Sounds way better.

The same goes for delay - set up a nice quiet single repeat and it sounds fine, but if you run distortion (either in pedal or amp form) after it, then the repeat gets louder and needs turning down. So delay is another one that should go after distortion, after the preamp.

I feel like reverb and delay are the two where it's absolutely essential to get in after the preamp if you can. With chorus and other modulation, it's really up to you - it just sounds different if you distort the chorus to if you apply chorus to existing distortion. Just see which you like best.

Once I had a channel-switching amp with no FX loop. I programmed my multi-fx unit (a Boss GT10 I think it was) such that whenever it switched channels on the amp, it also dropped the volume on any reverb or delay that existed in the patch. That worked quite nicely but it was a pain to set up.

In the end of course it is up to you. You might simply find a sound you love, so stick with that and ignore us!

So I should running the Chorus pedal through the effects loop, but run the Reverb pedal through the main input in front of the head...

Stupid question #2.  How do I hook stuff up to the effects loop?  There are two jacks in the rear of the head, a "Send" jack and "Return" jack.  What do I need to do with those, and I'm also assuming I wanna use SPEAKER cable, NOT a guitar cable, right?

 

[Jumble Jumble]

If it was me I would run the chorus and reverb both after the preamp, so IN the effects loop, chorus first and reverb second.

So it would go like this:

Guitar
(any effects before the amp, eg wah)
Main Amp input (preamp)
FX Send
Chorus
Reverb
FX Return
(power amp)


You just use normal guitar cables for the FX loop, the signal isn't very powerful yet as it hasn't gone through the power amp.