The OFFICIAL: "You know your HERO bands are on the way down when,......" THREAD

[hannaugh]

I'm pretty amazed that anyone would still have the desire to become a punk after the first few years.  I mean, when it started, the only rule was "be anti-establishment".  But after a while everyone started throwing the "poser" word around and being a punk turned into this unattainable thing.  I think it's all summed up by the Freaks and Geeks quote: "You know what punkers don't do?  Call themselves punkers."  The rest of the episode involves one of the main characters being super paranoid that he is a poser because he only recently started listening to punk and dressing punkish.  I just can't imagine spending that much time getting your mohawk just right and then thinking "Does my hair make me a poser?" on a daily basis.  

I'm in favor of listening to the music that you like and not caring who else listens to it or let it define you as being part of some scene.  Being yourself is way more fun.

Being a scenester is always stupid, no matter what the scene might be.  Some of us actually understand what it means, and if you think there were ever rules at all, let alone only one "in the beginning," you just don't get it. I'm not saying that to be exclusive or whatever, it's just true.  It's also not a judgment of you personally.  I don't claim that "punk" is good or better than your understanding; just that making that statement means you didn't get it.  There was never a hard and fast rule for what "punk" was (or what it meant to be "punk" oneself).  It's a non-dialectic experience, much like the concept of "quality" (nod to you Robert Pirsig fans).

I have my own opinions about what it means, but that really only matters to me and to the people close to me... which is sort of the point.  

-Mark

See, you just confirmed pretty much everything I've just said.  People talk about being a punker like it's this zen dadaist thing.  You can't have a movement in which there are no rules, because then there are no characteristics of that style.  You could just go ahead and say that every person on the planet is punk if that is the case.  Punk started off being anti-establishment, then it became about being anti-conformist instead which lead to people rejecting perfectly good things because they are too mainstream, which is conformist in and of itself.  Nowadays you can talk to 10 different punkers about what it means to be punk and they'll tell you ten different things before they get into this idea of "if you think about being a punk, then you're not a punk," which in my opinion is on par with the whole zen thing of "what is the sound of one hand clapping" and that game where the whole goal is to not think about the game.  And really, why bother with all that?  It has nothing to offer me.  If you like Black Flag, then listen to Black Flag and leave it at "I enjoy Black Flag".  If I wanted to go around telling everyone that I had this really cool mystical understanding of my inner badass that no one else could understand, I would.

 

[Mor Paul]

... and that game where the whole goal is to not think about the game.

Oh, you mean The Game.

Btw, you lose the game. And so do I now.

 

[AprioriMark]

See, you just confirmed pretty much everything I've just said.  People talk about being a punker like it's this zen dadaist thing.  You can't have a movement in which there are no rules, because then there are no characteristics of that style.  You could just go ahead and say that every person on the planet is punk if that is the case.  Punk started off being anti-establishment, then it became about being anti-conformist instead which lead to people rejecting perfectly good things because they are too mainstream, which is conformist in and of itself.  Nowadays you can talk to 10 different punkers about what it means to be punk and they'll tell you ten different things before they get into this idea of "if you think about being a punk, then you're not a punk," which in my opinion is on par with the whole zen thing of "what is the sound of one hand clapping" and that game where the whole goal is to not think about the game.  And really, why bother with all that?  It has nothing to offer me.  If you like Black Flag, then listen to Black Flag and leave it at "I enjoy Black Flag".  If I wanted to go around telling everyone that I had this really cool mystical understanding of my inner badass that no one else could understand, I would.

First sentence: wrong completely (as well as you trying to define how it started and what its values are again, haha).  That aside, I agree.  

While I'm not into trying to revive punk ideals for a larger audience, I will say that punk is closely tied to anarchy, which is another concept distorted by both (many of) the people involved in it and (many of) the people who would rather have a soundbite understanding than a real one.  So, if you (figurative "you" and not specific) don't care to understand, you won't value the reality.  It's not impossible or "cool" to understand.  It's something I value very much personally, and it has shaped my understanding of who I am and who I choose to be in the world.

Here's my overarching point for this forum:  Punk is (and never was) not a large social movement or fashion.  Anyone who treats it like that misses the point.  People as a whole are mass change creatures because they're afraid to do what it takes to truly be a free individual.  Being truly free means suffering and actually failing.  It means laughing at yourself, not because you're silly and vapid, but because life is beautifully ugly.

I apologize if this is all pretentious and a bunch of pontificating in your eyes.  This is a subject that I care a lot about, and I probably shouldn't have said anything at all since I'm not willing to argue about it.  It just really offends me to see people who are not a part of a community like that making false statements about what it "is."  

-Mark

 

[yyz2112]

This whole discussion about punk is why I said punk was largely a failure as a movement, and it was a movement if on a small scale (which I'm not sure I believe-a whole country was heavily influenced by it). The music was supposed to be an extension of the "attitude". That aside, being a punk was never supposed to be a quantifiable thing, but the consuming public had to have something to hang off their bodies so as to identify with the rebellion. And that naturally became the fashion, as always happens. So then, the quantifiable things about being a punk were those that mattered least. It was then easy to dismiss all of it based on the fashion, and any real social change (was there any?) was washed away.
Back to the music, it suffered the same fate. As musicians of other genres were influenced by punk music, its true meaning was washed away, and became inconsequential.

 

[MUYFUE]

Now we're talking!  :glasses9:

I'm really not going to get into a debate about what Punk is or isn't. I'm really not.
Allow me to throw around no fancy terms or smart words, ok? It's simple.
To quote the Great Rapper, Dr. Dre, "F*** Rap. You can have it back." That's pretty Fkn punk by me!

With much love and respect, really unless you lived through it, the whole thang is hard to describe and easy to cliche. To add to the confusion, early Punk was REMARKABLEY different depeding on where you were from. We just had to do something with ourselves! You really can't keep that kind of energy contained.

The mistake a lot of people make is to call it a movement. It was Me and My friends. It was MY movement, MY voice. It just sounded and looked a whole lot different than anyobody expected. Then the damn Yankees did all them group Vocals!  :laughing3: :laughing3:

Once punk got organized, people mistake it for collapse.  As the years went on, many folks viewed it as a softening of the Hardcore, when really people got SMART. All that happened was Change. Look at the Blues, even B.B. King...well maybe ESPECIALLY B.B.King, might want to watch hisself in Mississipi with his golden guitar.
Blues today is nothing like the blues of Robert Johnson, but it still exists.

Is Epitaph punk? SST? 2.13.61.? How Punk do you have to be, for G.G.'s sake?

Again I repeat, once the music of a particular band becomes a repetition of itself and no more progress is made, that's the death knell.

 

[yyz2112]

Blues today is nothing like the blues of Robert Johnson, but it still exists.

Again I repeat, once the music of a particular band becomes a repetition of itself and no more progress is made, that's the death knell.

I kept 2 interesting lines from your post. Yes, the blues and punk still "exist". But both have become largely formalized. What progress has been made in blues music? Like punk, any progress is looked upon as a deviation from the form and is classified as something else. Were the Stones, Zep, or Cream blues bands? You could argue either way, but purists labled them "blues rock", at least in hindsight.
This has developed into a cool thread, btw.

 

[taez555]

Everytime I think my hero bands have sold out, or jumped the shark, something comes along like the VMA awards to remind me that even on their worst St. Anger or Van Halen III days, it's still 1000 times better than any of the contrived, marketed, sanitized, talentless, faux badass,"we only sell our CD at Walmart" crap that passes for music today.

I''m really starting to think music is dead.    Does anyone know where I put my double live Poison album?

 

[hannaugh]

Everytime I think my hero bands have sold out, or jumped the shark, something comes along like the VMA awards to remind me that even on their worst St. Anger or Van Halen III days, it's still 1000 times better than any of the contrived, marketed, sanitized, talentless, faux badass,"we only sell our CD at Walmart" crap that passes for music today.

I''m really starting to think music is dead.    Does anyone know where I put my double live Poison album?

There are plenty of lesser known artists making great music right now.  You just won't find many of them on the tv or the radio.  But it's been that way for a loooooonng time.

 

[MUYFUE]

BEST
FORUM
EVER

Consider however that our most previous posts are about whole musical styles. When a certain artist stops making new and different music, to me anyway, they start to become something which necessitates deviance, in musical terms. You bring up hindsight...YES...let us remember that these judgments that tie a new style to the old are made after the initial shock wears off and we recognize the influences.

I kept 2 interesting lines from your post. Yes, the blues and punk still "exist". But both have become largely formalized. What progress has been made in blues music? Like punk, any progress is looked upon as a deviation from the form and is classified as something else. Were the Stones, Zep, or Cream blues bands? You could argue either way, but purists labled them "blues rock", at least in hindsight.
This has developed into a cool thread, btw.

And, BANG! Progress. People do it all the time.

There are plenty of lesser known artists making great music right now.  You just won't find many of them on the tv or the radio.  But it's been that way for a loooooonng time.

Perfect example.

 

[Vol. Knob]

Nobody gets uppity like a punk rocker when punk rock gets insulted.  Too many bands sound like The Ramones, who are not that great to begin with, sorry.  Sure, there are some great bands that fit into the genre, but for every good punk band, there are 10 that should pack it in.  Fugazi are great.  Die Kreuzen's early albums were both Punk and Awesome.  A local KC band, The Hopeless Destroyers, are the single greatest unsigned band of all time, and they're punk rock.  Black Flag were killer.  The Accused put on one of the best performances I've ever seen in the genre, back in the day.  But almost every other band in the genre makes me scratch my head and wonder what on earth people are hearing.  The genre jumped the shark long ago.

 

[tt0511]

You know your Hero bands or artists are on their way down when they finally come to the realization that they've "made it".  Personally, I don't think Satriani has done anything that worthy on the past two albums but I know many will disagree.  But where's that fire that was there in the early days?  I also think artists are on their way down when they stop scratching and clawing, pushing the envelope, learning and implementing new ideas and sounds in their music.  I feel like too many bands are trying to please people.  But I understand they have to eat and have a place to sleep so I have to quasi-grant them that there.  But, ...whatever happened to "have the balls to be yourself"???

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Well this is not exactly what I had in mind when I started this thread.  :laughing7:

But cool none the less!!!  :icon_jokercolor:

:rock-on:

 

[AprioriMark]

To quote the Great Rapper, Dr. Dre, "F*** Rap. You can have it back." That's pretty Fkn punk by me!

How Punk do you have to be, for G.G.'s sake?

I pulled those quotes out of your awesome post, because they made my morning, haha.  That's exactly how I feel about it all. 

-Mark

 

[TexxasJam]

See # 17 on the list...

http://new.us.music.yahoo.com/blogs/listoftheday/32270/the-25-worst-hair-metal-bands

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

The pic of "Mr. Big" at 25 is not even them.  It's David Lee Roth's solo act that had Steve Vai and Billy Sheehan.

 

[Death by Uberschall]

#7 Bad English has a pic of Spinal Tap  :doh:
Bad English was pop rock, not hair metal!!

Dokken?!?!? Dokken was a great band, GEORGE LYNCH anybody???

White Lion, VITTO BRATTA, GREAT GUITAR PLAYER, I like him better than EVH. Where Eddie was more tricks and flash, Bratta was more melody and substance. Great blues based rocker.

Skid Row, another good band.

Great White, more blues than hair metal???

That guy is an idiot.

 

[m4rk0]

I have to agree, that is a horrible list!
some of the greatest guitarists of all time are on that list: Paul Gilbert, Nuno, Vitto Bratta, John Sykes (depending on which version of Whitesnake you are talking about)

Also, Giuffria turned into "House of Lords" who I really liked. they also had one of the most underrated shedders ever, Lanny Cordola.

 

[MUYFUE]

Dude IS an idiot.
#8...did he trash talk Rachael Ray?!?!?! dude must die. :evil4:

I do have to agree with his thing about Ozzy. Same as 'tallica's Sumkinda Munster.

You know your band is on the way down when they do a "reality" special...Just took the mystery away too much.

The Wizard of Oz was much cooler when he wasn't a little old man on a microphone...






:tard: