stainless frets (pics added)

[jackthehack]

You SURE your wife/kid/dog/cat didn't smack that up against something and neglect to tell you about it?

 

[Bill in SC]

I guess I will just play the heck out of it. Being the first stainless frets I ever had, I thought they were pretty much indestructible, but heck, NOTHING would be indestructible!    I'm sure they will last a good long time, even if they are worn a tad already. Only started this thread to see if anyone else had similar circumstances. As previously posted, I've always been rough on frets..
BB in SC

 

[simple]

I've always been rough on frets..

...my favorite kind of guitar player; purposeful guitar brutality.  :guitaristgif:

 

[nathan a]

My nickel frets always look like that, especially on acoustics. But damn, you must have, uh, very strong hands. 

 

[neilium]

What about stainless steel strings? SS strings on SS frets would be an even fight, at least on the bass side. Any theories?

 

[-CB-]

I'd like to know... is there a "home test" that can be done to determine if frets are stainless or not.

 

[neilium]

I'd like to know... is there a "home test" that can be done to determine if frets are stainless or not.

Well, one tastes like stainless steel.

 

[-CB-]

I might have a test - and maybe someone can help with this....

I KNOW home gun blue liquid (acidic selenium salt solution) will not do a thing to stainless steel.  I'm wondering if it would darken or discolor nickel silver (aka cupronickel or copper/nickel 80/20).

I have zero bluing touch up here.  If somebody has some, and is willing to dry a SMALL DAB on a non-stainless fret, that would be helpful, and it might provide some objectivity to this thread.  May I suggest - just dampening a Q-Tip, then wiping a small section of fret.  I am nearly certain it will darken, as the selenium salt will bond (plate actually) with the copper and oxidize dark.  Selenium wont bond with the stainless steel, and you dont get metal darkening.

Naturally, it will buff off easily with a rag (use some tooth paste if its stubborn, but I doubt it will be).

Many thanks for someone with an inquisitive mind for trying this.

 

[DiMitriR33]

may be a bad batch of frets.
warmoth doesn't advertise the alloy of the frets so it's dificult to give specifics but as a machinist and welder in the air force i have some heat treating experience and know a little about metalurgy.
as CB stated there are many types of stainless and corosion resistant steals. many are capable of becoming extremely hard through heat treatment and all metals can be work hardened.
it's hard to say how the frets are formed but i'd amagine they're coldworked in some way and that's how they get their hardness. if this is true it's may need to be done in stages and anealed in between. maybe yours went through the oven one too many times.

also if they are hardened by heattreatment they are likely done in a large batch. hardness testing is a destructive process so only a couple pieces in a batch are tested and it is assumed that the batch is uniform. but there is no garentee that heat in the oven is uniform or that the quenchant was agitated properly.

 

[Bill in SC]

That's exactly what my initial thoughts were, Di Mitri R33. I figured probably a bad batch, or a partial bad batch pertaining to heat treating. The reason I don't send it back is because all Warmoth could do would be to verify if they were stainless or not, which I'm sure they are as they have not oxidized any at all in the nearly year I have had the neck, and it is clearly marked SS 6105. They would have no way to know that this neck has only been played maybe 40 or 50 hours, other than my word. If they took everybody's "word" about every little problem that arose from day to day, they would have all kinds of bullshiteee to deal with from nuts all over. I know Warmoth is a FIRST CLASS outfit, and I'm sure they don't "test" the fret wire for hardness once it arrives at their facility. However, that being said, perhaps they could relay this thread to the folks who make the wire, so more stringent test procedures could be implemented in the future. When one pays for durability, one expects the material to perform. Would I order another neck from Warmoth in the future with stainless fret wire? In a heart beat!  I feel that this issue with my particular neck is few and far between. I'm hoping others that ordered stainless fret wire about a year ago will check their's closely, just to verify that mine is an isolated problem.
Bill in South Carolina
BTW: I should add that in over 37 years of playing, this was my FIRST stainless fret neck. Going into this endeavor, I had the impression that the stainless wire was nearly indestructible since it is supposed to be much harder than the strings that produce the friction on it. I figured to play it for YEARS with little to NO wear. Once again, I have NEVER tried them before.That being said, if Gregg says "We'll take your word for the minimal playing time on it, then check and replace them.", I'll send it back. Then, they could test the actual frets in question and we would all know what the deal is.
BTW 2: Once again keep in mind that my other Warmoth neck with stainless frets that has been played nearly EVERY day for well over a year, has NO signs of fret wear.

 

[-CB-]

Personally, I'd give it the bluing test.  If it dont pass, they used the wrong fretwire.  I'm VERY inclined to think they did that.

The reason I'm inclined it was simple human error (wrong wire) is because NOBODY else is complaining about soft stainless frets.  If you had soft ones, the whole batch would be soft, and we'd be hearing from it.

No, much applause to W, but I'm very much thinking there's a good chance of "wrong wire" used.  Send it back, or do the test, but be sure ya got what ya paid for.

 

[DiMitriR33]

i agree with CB. the test should show if the frets contain copper and therefore are or are not stainless.
if you can prove it i think warmoth will be willing to come up with a solution for you even if you have to wait a while.
realy buying a little of this gun blue won't break the bank by any means and then you know.

 

[Bill in SC]

I should have some gun blue lying around somewhere, and will locate it and do the test. I still think they are stainless though as they show NO oxidation. Also, the whole batch would not necessarily be soft as temperatures in the hardening process may vary from point to point. Actually, I would be willing to let Warmoth remove the frets in question and have them tested for hardness. If for some reason they test out OK, I would be willing to pay for the test and refret of the two frets in question. On the other hand, if they tested "soft", Warmoth could foot the bill. All I know is that I have ALL the parts orderd to complete the project. Ordered the bridge, pots, switch, and some screws from Warmoth yesterday, and I have already gotten the Gibson '57 Classics ready to install.

 

[simple]

No metalurgy technology going on at Warmoth, just a wood shop.

 

[stubhead]

I know that people who do fret level, crown & polishes first complained about SS frets ruining their tools, then when they didn't go away :icon_biggrin:, they started keeping separate sets of all-diamond tools for the SS work, and (sometimes) charging a premium cause they still eat your tools. However, my point is that they CAN be worked somehow, so they're not "indestructible" - whether they're 4 times harder, 8 times, I don't know. The weird thing to me is that you have another guitar with stainless frets that should serve as the "control group", that hasn't worn.

 

[Bill in SC]

<The weird thing to me is that you have another guitar with stainless frets that should serve as the "control group", that hasn't worn.>

Stubhead: That's the #1, and most mind boggling mystery, and the reason I have not abandoned this thread. I looked again last night at my other neck. It has been played at LEAST 300 hours, by me and everyone else who LOVES this Warmoth guitar and neck. It has NO (-0-) fret wear. That in itself is reason enough for me to want to get to the bottom of this mystery. So, I guess my next step is the "blue" test. I still think they are stainless, as there is no oxidation, and I just can''t see Warmoth (even though they are human), making a mistake marking the neck according to the frets installed. It is clearly marked SS 6105. That being said, what would my next step be if they do test stainless? That would CLEARLY indicate a metallurgical problem, and Gregg says they have NO way to test them. Bottom line is that if they are determined to be stainless, I probably could not get any satisfaction from Warmoth per Gregg's quote, "I would doubt if we could tell you what is causing the wear." But, first things first, so let me do a "gun blue" test on the fret wire and see what happens.
  I sincerely appreciate all the forumees who have kept this thread alive as it sure enough is an enigma. The genuine interest in this thread has renewed my enthusiasm to get to the solution of the dilemma. If there had been no interest, I'm sure the dilemma would have never been solved/resolved.
Bill in SC

 

[-CB-]

I should have some gun blue lying around somewhere, and will locate it and do the test. I still think they are stainless though as they show NO oxidation. Also, the whole batch would not necessarily be soft as temperatures in the hardening process may vary from point to point. 

Just use a tiny dot of it... like wet a toothpick and rub the surface of a fret.  Dont let it seep into the wood.

Also - I doubt very seriously if fretwire is further treated after forming.  That is, the final shaping of the wire is from metal that is already "wire" as its fed into the machine.  Rollers press the wire into its various shapes, including the barbs etc etc.  After that, I'm just about sure no further action is taken except cutting it.  If further hardening took place (and lots just has from working the metal), it would change the surface finish and the frets would need to be polished again.  I seriously doubt thats the case.  The metal (stainless may actually be annealed (softened) slightly by heating before the forming process is allowed to work harden it again.

 

[DiMitriR33]

that's my asumption too. but the wire may need to be partially anealed between steps. either that or it may be rolled hot and then quenched. maybe a problem with quenchant.

maybe wire of a diferent alloy, or from another suplier.

or the manufacturer may have changed the process to save money. i'm sure the wire is hard on tooling. if so the new process might produce a softer final product.

in the racing world i hear many claims of bad batches of parts that get through QC and into many expensive engines, usually stainless valves.

i think it's more likely that the frets are nickel but metalurgical problems with stainless aren't unheardof.

 

[Bill in SC]

I thought I had some gun blue here, but I can't put my hands on it. A gun blue kit is $15 and I hate to spend that much, just needing a tiny drop. Can anyone think of any other way to test it?
BB in SC

 

[jackthehack]

Regardless of the exact composition of the fret metal, it appears as if there is an issue based on the pics you posted and the amount of playing time you state, independent of whether the frets are SS or nickle.

I'd quit jacking around and just send the neck to Warmoth for eval/repair as Gregg offered, they'll know exactly what the deal is and let you know.