Srat wiring~ Two tone or master tone?

[Surf n Music]

A couple questions. It seems having one master tone would be simpler but I'm guessing that two tone knobs allows more range in tone by adjusting pickups separately?  Also I noticed that wiring diagrams call for a .022 cap when using two tone pots and .047 cap when using a single tone pot. Why is this? :tard:

 

[Cagey]

One master tone is simpler, and makes more sense overall. In these days of monster pedalboards and fancy amps, some folks even eliminate the tone control altogether to get better tone out of the guitar to start with. You're adjusting the hell out of it after the fact anyway.

Plus, with more than one volume or tone control on passive systems, you always end up with controls in parallel when you select multiple pickups, so you may have trouble predicting what you're switching into and end up with something too dead, too bright or too quiet. Then you're scrambling to correct when you may not have time.

As for capacitor sizes, I'm not sure why anyone would ever use a .047 part. It rolls off so much that it almost becomes a volume control. I suspect that's why some folks don't use their tone controls - they're too wild - so they crank it to 10 and leave it. A .022 part is more useful.

 

[croquet hoop]

I've seen a bunch of wiring diagrams for strats, some with one tone pot and one cap (nothing abnormal), some with two tone pots and one cap, others with two tone pots and two caps, with values ranging from .022 to .1. I am not sure there is any hard rule.

A tone pot acts as a low pass filter. Higher cap values will remove more high freq content from your signal when the tone pot is lowered. So, you need to figure out what is the "darkest" tone you want from your pickups. If you want a very muffled tone when the tone is fully rolled back, use a higher value cap (up to .1). If you just want to remove that extra bit of sparkle, use a .10 or .022 cap.

If you are not sure, start with a .047. You will still be able to replace it later if you need something different.

 

[croquet hoop]

As for capacitor sizes, I'm not sure why anyone would ever use a .047 part. It rolls off so much that it almost becomes a volume control.

I guess it can be fine for, say, jazz players with bright pickups ? Plus, although many players use pots only rolled fully up or down, many others have no problems dialing values in-between (which is easier with the right pot taper). Since the cap value only only determines the maximum effect of the tone pot, I think .047 can be fine for a bunch of players.

 

[drewfx]

Having just a single tone control only makes more sense for people who use their tone controls in particular ways. And "simpler" is not a real advantage for anyone who does not find having two tones to somehow be mind boggling complex or whatever.

Personally, on a strat I like a dedicated tone on the neck PU, no tone on the middle and a tone on the bridge because I tend to like the neck rolled off somewhat and it would be rather stupid to have to adjust a master tone every time I want to move the switch to get that sound and then adjust it again when I switched to the sound I want from the middle PU.

But of course it depends on how you use your tone controls. It's just a preference.

 

[Surf n Music]

All good stuff. I appreciate the points of view. I got a little better understanding of what the caps do now. Looking at some more diagrams and from your readings I can see a huge variety of choices. You could almost get lost in them all. You combine that with pedals and amp settings and one could get a bit lost of feel overwhelmed. I think I just gotta spend time experimenting and getting a feel for what work for me with different songs. Coming from a acoustic only background  it is rather exciting with all the choices. 

 

[Dan025]

the thing with 2 tones and one volume is the at usefullness is limited, the only real benefit is that you can tune one pickup differently than the other two IN DIFFERENT POSITIONS, they don't actually mix 2 different sounds, ie you could have a fat sound on the neck and a bright sound on the bridge, so in this way the pickup selector becomes an instant way to add contrast, it's faster/easier to slap the pickup selector than it is to turn a knob. though if for instance you would never use a tone on the bridge pickup you could also get that by using the selectors second pole to chose which positions the tone works with...

the factory wiring for the 2 tones uses one cap unless there is some extra wiring option that would make things work weird, what that ends up doing is making it so when on knob is at zero the other is completely useless in the positions that use both. if you use 2 caps you double the range in the mixed positions. which is right? you could probably argue reasons for both. the thing is that you don't actually get the ability to adjust pickups seperately just by having 2 tones with 2 caps. the two caps work more or less as one combined value if they are both in the circuit. if for instance the caps are identical and the pots are identical then having one knob at 3 and the other at 7 is identical to having the positions of those knobs reversed. the two pickups are creating one signal and the two tones are individually pulling highs down on that one signal. you only get individual adjustment if the system is buffered. ie you have 2 or 3 transistors and a battery to isolate the pickups from each other. no active system on the market that i know of does this. the tones would have to be connected to the preamp in the pickup or to the pickups before the preamps, not post preamp. it may also work if you use transformers to isolate things passively but transformers do go boths ways so i suspect there would still be coupling that would at minimum limit the effectiveness of the amount you could isolate things.

you have to think about it as the tone it attached to the selector position rather than the pickup. you can't use one cap to subtract more trebble from one pickup than the other to generate new mixed tones without isolation. multiple volumes might make this possible to a very limited extent.

 

[drewfx]

you only get individual adjustment if the system is buffered. ie you have 2 or 3 transistors and a battery to isolate the pickups from each other. no active system on the market that i know of does this.

An EMG ABC (but not the ABCX) Active Blend Control does this (buffers the PU's). And there are indeed other active preamps that do the same thing.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Another option to consider is a TBX Tone control.  I have one on both of my strats wired as a master tone.  The TBX lets you shift the tone in either direction (there's a center detent).  Works great for a final "tweak" on your tone IMO.

 

[stubhead]

I don't know how much you expect to ask the really perfect questions and get the really perfect answers so that your guitar will be

:hello2: absolutely perfect first time through!  :hello2:

hoo-ray!

...as opposed to considering each guitar as a work in progress. If you're trying to find out what different things DO - inside your ears, not the generic internet-poster-ear - you have to try some things. Consider these two facts:

1) Capacitors are additive in value when wired parallel. So, if you wire up a guitar with a .22 caliber, and leave yourself room to add another 15, 22, 33 right beside it - you can start with a lower value, and if you then find that the knob isn't having as much effect as you'd like, you can just slide another puppy in there right beside each other. 22+33=55, 22+22=44 etc.

2) You can (roughly) halve the value of a potentiometer by connecting a resistor of the appropriate value across the outer two lugs of the pot -
http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/potm.htm

So if you always put in 500's, and in a particular instance, the basic tone is still too bright all through the travel of the tone pot; but, crafty you, you keep some 750k resistors around, as the man sez you can reliably turn a 500 into a 300! But also as the man sez, MEASURE YOUR POTS. In my experience, that "+ - 20%" always goes minus, and often it can go to 30% or more. I mean CTS, Alpha, Warmoth, Stewart-MacDonald, Doofminder's Superb Gitbitty's, EVERYBODY. Not so critical with a 500, but the 250's transform into parasitic little 170-hp boogereater tone-termites. So:

A) If you always start with 500's and 22's, you can "fix it in the mix", always useful if you're working with a pickup you haven't used before.

B) Your control cavities are likely to look like King Solomon's mines after all the good chunks got woofed outta there (and the cleanup crew drank their lunch), only people who actually know what they're doing can look in there and converse intelligibly afterwards.

P.S. (Never, ever, EVER buy potentiometers from people who sell "matched sets" - unless YOU buy the matched sets. Whaddayou think happens to the ones that didn't "match?")  :icon_tongue:

 

[Jumble Jumble]

A couple questions. It seems having one master tone would be simpler but I'm guessing that two tone knobs allows more range in tone by adjusting pickups separately?  Also I noticed that wiring diagrams call for a .022 cap when using two tone pots and .047 cap when using a single tone pot. Why is this? :tard:

The stock wiring is an artifact of the original Strat wiring. It had a three-way switch, which activated one pickup at a time. The tone controls were  given as being for "neck pickup" and for "middle pickup". No tone control for the bridge pickup was provided. While it was kinda correct to say that one tone control was for the neck pickup and the other was for the middle, it's slightly misleading. What it really meant was that one tone control became the master tone of the guitar in one position, and the other one became the master tone in another. You're simultaneously switching which pickup is active, along with which tone control is active.

However, once they moved to a five-way switch, things got a lot more complicated. Now, in the neck+middle position, both tone controls are active, because of the way the switch works. Now you're not switching between active tone controls any more and you have two master tone controls connected at the same time. What's more, the popular bridge pickup tone mod meant that the second tone control is active in three positions now. Which leads to this:

Plus, with more than one volume or tone control on passive systems, you always end up with controls in parallel

This is a slight misconception - it's not actually an impossibility. It's possible to restore the original philosophy of the switching - only use one tone control at a time - using a super switch. For instance, you could decide that one tone control is active whenever the neck pickup is on, and the other tone control is active at all other times. Or one tone control for the single-pickup selections, and the other for the in-between positions. You're cutting that link that's crept in between pickups and tone controls, and restoring the link between tone controls and the switch position. Unless for some reason you really want it, you never need to have two tone controls active at the same time.

I wire mine so that the first tone control does neck only, neck+mid and mid only, and the second tone control does mid+bridge and bridge only. Works nicely.

 

[Day-mun]

I wire mine so that the first tone control does neck only, neck+mid and mid only, and the second tone control does mid+bridge and bridge only. Works nicely.

I like this set-up as well, but if I'm feeling cheap, I keep the original switch, and just move the second tone connection over to the leaf at the five-position (Tone#1 for neck/neck+mid, Tone#2 for bridge/bridge+mid); -no tone control for middle only (three-position), but who (other than Rory) ever really uses the middle pickup by itself, anyway? If I do put in a super-switch, I make that three position neck+bridge, rather than middle, then assign the "neck tone" to that combo... -Easy to do when ya got four poles, and leaves for every position on the switch (instead of shared positions at 2 & 4) on every pole!

 

[Surf n Music]

A) If you always start with 500's and 22's, you can "fix it in the mix", always useful if you're working with a pickup you haven't used before.

B) Your control cavities are likely to look like King Solomon's mines after all the good chunks got woofed outta there (and the cleanup crew drank their lunch), only people who actually know what they're doing can look in there and converse intelligibly afterwards.

P.S. (Never, ever, EVER buy potentiometers from people who sell "matched sets" - unless YOU buy the matched sets. Whaddayou think happens to the ones that didn't "match?")  :icon_tongue:

Dam I never really thought of all that. You can really fine tune using different caps. Also you might be getting different tones just due to variations in the resistance of the pots. + - 20% seems like a big tolerance gap. I'm surprised they don't tighten that up. I'll start measuring them. And those crooks selling (un) matched sets! Always gotta be keeping your eyes open.

On point B. are you saying that depending on how much wood was taken out will affect the tone?  I heard that the Lenny Guitar that SRV played had basically a pool type carving under the pickguard from a prior owner and that gave the guitar a different tone.

 

[Surf n Music]

I wire mine so that the first tone control does neck only, neck+mid and mid only, and the second tone control does mid+bridge and bridge only. Works nicely.

In doing this you would have a slight advantage, like if you are playing a certain where you are going between the neck and the bridge you can already have the tone set where you want where if you had a single master tone you might have to fiddle with it a bit (not a huge deal) but still it would be convenient in that aspect.

In doing this setup you would want each tone pot to have its own capacitor then... I would think.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

You can do either, but yes it's actually quite nice to have different caps on the two tone controls.

 

[Dan025]

you only get individual adjustment if the system is buffered. ie you have 2 or 3 transistors and a battery to isolate the pickups from each other. no active system on the market that i know of does this.

An EMG ABC (but not the ABCX) Active Blend Control does this (buffers the PU's). And there are indeed other active preamps that do the same thing.

ok sorry it appears i just have limited knowledge of emgs product line. it appears all you actually need is an active tone though they also have tone pots labled as "active tone" which is a misnomer because they are really passive tones for active pickups. the pickups must be buffered seperately after the signal is filtered and something like a pair of their vlpf controls can do that if you wire it with that in mind.

i didn't mean that active pickups aren't buffered. i mean that's kinda the definition of active pickups. a more clear explaination is that the tone must have a buffered output and be individual to the pickup... poor wording. and yes, there appears to be products that satisfy that requirement.

i haven't looked into actives in a very long time, and it's my fault for being out of date. i remember when EMGs were either all very simple or there was little or no advertising for some of their products. all i remembered about their stuff was that the pickups had built in amps and the tones used lower impedance pots but the tones were in and of themselves passive, just isolated from the pickup via the pickups internal amp. but yes it appears they have products that buffer after the signal is filtered and layouts exist where you can mix two signals with discrete filtering of each.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

A couple questions. It seems having one master tone would be simpler but I'm guessing that two tone knobs allows more range in tone by adjusting pickups separately?  Also I noticed that wiring diagrams call for a .022 cap when using two tone pots and .047 cap when using a single tone pot. Why is this? :tard:

Like it was said, adding cap values in parallel is additive.  2 cap values of .022 in parallel is .044, which is close enough to .047.  It's like the best of both worlds.

I'm in disagreement with Cagey though about the perfect value.  There is no perfect answer, same as there is no perfect amount of salt on fries or sugar in iced tea.  To me, .047 is the perfect pot value on a single tone circuit because it's more than you need.  I could roll .022 all the way off and be left wanting, but never roll .047 all the way off.

 

[Surf n Music]

A couple questions. It seems having one master tone would be simpler but I'm guessing that two tone knobs allows more range in tone by adjusting pickups separately?  Also I noticed that wiring diagrams call for a .022 cap when using two tone pots and .047 cap when using a single tone pot. Why is this? :tard:

Like it was said, adding cap values in parallel is additive.  2 cap values of .022 in parallel is .044, which is close enough to .047.  It's like the best of both worlds.

So the bigger the cap the more treble you can take off?? That means by adding a bigger cap it is there if you need it but you can control it with a turn of the knob and don't necessarily have to use it.
I'm in disagreement with Cagey though about the perfect value.  There is no perfect answer, same as there is no perfect amount of salt on fries or sugar in iced tea.  To me, .047 is the perfect pot value on a single tone circuit because it's more than you need.  I could roll .022 all the way off and be left wanting, but never roll .047 all the way off.

 

[croquet hoop]

So the bigger the cap the more treble you can take off??

Yep.

http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=23346.msg343226#msg343226

 

[Surf n Music]

So the bigger the cap the more treble you can take off??

Yep.

http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=23346.msg343226#msg343226

Oh ya you already said it  :doh: it is a lot of info. I'm getting it. Just takes a little sinking in :laughing7: