So who believes and who doesn't believe.....

[sixstringsamurai]

There seems to be quite a heated debate over the internet going on at the moment.  Without getting aggressive, can I ask what foundation you base that on and on what basis anybody that says otherwise is a fool?

The fool comment was directed at the"gentleman" in the Youtube videos with the overwhelming need to use the derogatory term Faggot for anyone who questioned his absolutes.

not at anyone here.

I can say it does matter, I have 3 guitars, all different configurations and woods, and granted all parts play a role in tone, but wood and construction of the materials plays the most prominent role.

IE I have two W soloist, the first 2 pc SwAsh / Maple lam top, maple / maple neck, the other, 1 pc SwAsh, no lam top.
Maple / Ebony neck, all cut to the exact same specs, both with humbuckers, different Peg head shapes, both VASTLY different in tone.

The third a Epi 56 RI LP Mahogany cap and 2 pc body, Maple / Rosewood neck, with its own very distinct voice from the other two, granted it is loaded with P-90's.

 

[Stonker]

OK, I don't know who you're talking about on YouTube but my guess would be that Scott Groves fella?

I was looking to have a rational debate on here about it.  Some of the vidoes on YouTube show some pretty convincing evidence that tonewood doesn't make a difference so I am looking to see if I can find any equally convincing evidence that it does.

I think we can discount your ax with P90s (I'm looking to build something with P90s too).  With your other 2 guitars, are the pickups, strings, nut, frets, bridge, scale length and pickup position all identical?

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

All in all, it's all very subjective.

Acoustically, meaning with no electronics or unplugged, you'll hear a likely difference between body woods.  This might equate to how the guitar feels when resonating in your hands.

Once you add chitterlings & other guts, then plug it in, so many more variables introduce their influence into the tonal signature.  At that point, what what may attribute to a pickup's characteristic, another may attribute to whether or not the tone capacitor was PIP (Paper in Oil) or Ceramic, and at what value? Same thing with the pots.  Same thing with shielded wire versus push back cloth wire.  Hardware is another discussion entirely on the metallurgic properties of each piece of hardware and its potential influence on the tone.

If it feels good to you while your noodling around unplugged while watching TV, then the other things can go any number of ways.

 

[sixstringsamurai]

I think we can discount your ax with P90s (I'm looking to build something with P90s too).  With your other 2 guitars, are the pickups, strings, nut, frets, bridge, scale length and pickup position all identical?

Agreed on the LP, I just threw that in as a construction variable.

As for the soloists.

Single Bridge Pup, recessed TOM, Angled strings, single Vol, both 24 3/4 Conversion necks, SD JB's in both. 10-47 GHS nickel rockers, both with Graphtech tusq nuts, and 6150 true jumbo frets.

The biggest variable between these two, is the body finish, my Lam top is a W poly finish, and my one piece is stained and tru oiled.

But even at that I have picked up identical bone stock guitars before and had that sound very different.

I guess it's kinda like religion, you either believe or you don't, Given that these instruments are built from living, breathing tissue, each is an individual, so each will have its own voice.

 

[Stonker]

Interesting.  I guess there is sill scope for the pickup/pots etc to be electrically slightly different though (I guess they are built within tolerances).  I am really open minded about this but this but the claims that the wood makes absolutely no difference is backed up scientific evidence and examples of somebody cutting bits off a strat, somebody removing the neck completely and somebody making a strat body out of a lump of kitchen worktop.  I would be interested to see some scientific evidence as to why it does make a difference.

If you believe it does, how much?  Can you only hear it with a clean signal?  Once you add compression/distortion etc, can you still hear a difference?

 

[sixstringsamurai]

I don't play clean a lot, but if I do I just roll off the Vol.

Nor do I degrade my signal with tons of gain, the JB's and a Slightly dirty boost push my amp very well.

But even at higher gain, there is a very noticeable difference to me.

My lam top being four glued pieces, Lacks the sustain, and vocal quality of the one piece ash.

 

[Cagey]

I don't think there are very many who are claiming that it makes NO difference, just that on the list of things that DO make a difference, the body isn't too high on the list. But, when these kinds of discussions come up, sometimes passions run deep and you can get misinterpretations of what's actually said, exaggerations, improper comparisons, etc. It's tough to filter through it all sometimes.

I mean, if you made even a partial list of things that could affect tone, then if someone is inclined to make binary decisions on their importance would see something like this:

Feature	relevant?
Neck	yes
body	yes
Pickups	yes
Strings	yes
Bridge	yes
Nut	yes
Fretboard	yes
Finish	yes
Strap Lugs	No
Diet	No

And, of course, everybody would assign the same weight to all points, and you'd start a huge argument on the World Wide Wibble about how important those last two things are  :laughing7:

But, fact is, some things make more difference than others. The fact that the body is second on the list above doesn't mean it's the second most important thing.

 

[Stonker]

Ah...sustain is something different.  It's the tone that I'm asking about.  It you believe the tone is different that's interesting.  I do wonder if it's a variation in the electronics or setup rather than the wood though.

 

[Stonker]

Cagey, there are a few on YouTube going to great lengths to prove that the wood  makes absolutely no difference at all.

 

[sixstringsamurai]

Ah...sustain is something different.  It's the tone that I'm asking about.  It you believe the tone is different that's interesting.  I do wonder if it's a variation in the electronics or setup rather than the wood though.

Ahhh but IMO sustain is part of the overall Equation, for you may be able to sing but if you can't hold the note?

:icon_biggrin:

 

[stratamania]

If a tonewood falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it. Does it make a sound ?

 

[Cagey]

Cagey, there are a few on YouTube going to great lengths to prove that the wood  makes absolutely no difference at all.

I know. But, I can't think of a way to prove that and any tests I've seen have been flawed. So, I'm reluctant to speak in absolutes. I don't think it makes much difference, but I'm not going to say it's irrelevant. It's just that in my experience it's been minor to the point where I don't worry about it.

Wood is variable; there's no question about that. But, even soft, lightweight bodies are massive relative to the strings, so they're just not going to have that much effect. Now, you might notice some added effect if you're playing in front of a large high-powered stack with all the controls on 11 that's beating the hell out of the air around you and everything in it, but then the outside influence is so profound that just about anything is going to react to it.

 

[Stonker]

I agree and these so called experts do acknowledge that sustain is affected by tonewood.  They argue that tone is not though (once the guitar is plugged in)

 

[bagman67]

I think you're done with the question:  The consensus - or at least the majority view - is that any difference is likely to be hard to detect, if present.  What else are you trying to get to the bottom of?

 

[Stonker]

Nothing really.  Let's leave it open for any further input though eh?

 

[Wizard of Wailing]

    Don't forget about scale length.  I've swapped my Warmoth 24 3/4 maple neck with my Warmoth 25 1/2  maple neck and the difference was huge.

 

[jackthehack]

Almost never matters, but there is one exception - sometimes bodies made from extremely light wood of any variety can be somewhat resonate like a semi-hollow body guitar. Two examples in my collection are a 1964 mahogany Melody Maker (thinner than your typical solid body) that weighs a total of 5 lbs. (ca, 2.3 kilograms) and a VW build I did that had a quilted maple top over an extremely light-weight ash body, the body by itself only weighed 2 lbs. 3 oz. (about 1 kilogram)...

 

[bagman67]

    Don't forget about scale length.  I've swapped my Warmoth 24 3/4 maple neck with my Warmoth 25 1/2  maple neck and the difference was huge.

Agreed, but all other things being equal, including scale length, I'd expect body lumber species to -- generally -- be of minimal impact on overall tone.