Refinish old Rickenbacker

[T.Rex]

I think you should leave it alone...you stand a good chance of truly messing up that guitar. It sounds a bit like you're itchin' to finish a guitar, so what about buying a Warmoth alder or poplar body and doin' a job on it? You'd gain some valuable knowledge and experience, and possibly a cool new guitar...then,  if you've still got your heart set on it, you can go ahead and ruin--I mean refin(! :icon_jokercolor:!) the Ric...

Actually, I have little desire to do this work myself, although I've done my share of industrial painting. I just haven't been able to find someone to do it for me. And I'd love to build one and finish it myself, but this Rickenbacker 481 "thing" is a specific obsession going back to the mid-1970s when I was getting started on guitar. Part of the lasting attraction, besides it being just a damn fine looking and playing guitar, is the fact that it isn't Fender, Gibson, or even typical Rickenbacker-like. And I entertained building a modern "knock-off" out of Warmoth parts, until I was warned about how litigious Rickenbacker is about such things! While I'm not swayed against getting the pee color back to white somehow, I am leaning toward having a real expert do it. Thanks for your advise and input.

 

[leo12.]

The topic  raised by Don, about the yellowing being in the clear coat had crossed my mind,
but as its in the pickguard area too gets me thinking its a chemical reaction. If it was nitro
white with a clear coat (which would probably had not UV protection in it) should look
whiter under the p/guard area (not speaking from experience here) I heard that putting
a clear poly coat over a pre cat cellulose white, the acid turns the poly yellow.
I don't know I never tried it. Its hard to know what went on in finishing shops back in the day
I have seen some Ric builds on the web somewhere, the idea by Great A is  a good idea
about getting a blank sounds fine if the neck pocket & scale lenght suits you could finish it
with your experience as outlined above I'd keep the neck as is untill you see how the new
body goes. good luck.

 

[Don]

I think you should leave it alone...you stand a good chance of truly messing up that guitar. It sounds a bit like you're itchin' to finish a guitar, so what about buying a Warmoth alder or poplar body and doin' a job on it? You'd gain some valuable knowledge and experience, and possibly a cool new guitar...then,  if you've still got your heart set on it, you can go ahead and ruin--I mean refin(! :icon_jokercolor:!) the Ric...

Actually, I have little desire to do this work myself, although I've done my share of industrial painting. I just haven't been able to find someone to do it for me. And I'd love to build one and finish it myself, but this Rickenbacker 481 "thing" is a specific obsession going back to the mid-1970s when I was getting started on guitar. Part of the lasting attraction, besides it being just a damn fine looking and playing guitar, is the fact that it isn't Fender, Gibson, or even typical Rickenbacker-like. And I entertained building a modern "knock-off" out of Warmoth parts, until I was warned about how litigious Rickenbacker is about such things! While I'm not swayed against getting the pee color back to white somehow, I am leaning toward having a real expert do it. Thanks for your advise and input.

Since you like it even if it's not a "classic" Rickenbacker, i suppose you aren't one of those brand-name-vintage-original fanatics. Then why don't you just build yourself a new one? You have all the data you need cause you own the damn thing  :laughing7:  With the specs you want or you can go all original.
Both ways i guess that you would loose less money building one from scratch than devintaging a vintage original 
Think about the value drop. Now it's valued around 2000 $. When refinished you probably wouldn't sell it for half.
You know, just think this thoroughly  :icon_thumright:

 

[T.Rex]

I think you should leave it alone...you stand a good chance of truly messing up that guitar. It sounds a bit like you're itchin' to finish a guitar, so what about buying a Warmoth alder or poplar body and doin' a job on it? You'd gain some valuable knowledge and experience, and possibly a cool new guitar...then,  if you've still got your heart set on it, you can go ahead and ruin--I mean refin(! :icon_jokercolor:!) the Ric...

Actually, I have little desire to do this work myself, although I've done my share of industrial painting. I just haven't been able to find someone to do it for me. And I'd love to build one and finish it myself, but this Rickenbacker 481 "thing" is a specific obsession going back to the mid-1970s when I was getting started on guitar. Part of the lasting attraction, besides it being just a damn fine looking and playing guitar, is the fact that it isn't Fender, Gibson, or even typical Rickenbacker-like. And I entertained building a modern "knock-off" out of Warmoth parts, until I was warned about how litigious Rickenbacker is about such things! While I'm not swayed against getting the pee color back to white somehow, I am leaning toward having a real expert do it. Thanks for your advise and input.

Since you like it even if it's not a "classic" Rickenbacker, i suppose you aren't one of those brand-name-vintage-original fanatics. Then why don't you just build yourself a new one? You have all the data you need cause you own the damn thing  :laughing7:  With the specs you want or you can go all original.
Both ways i guess that you would loose less money building one from scratch than devintaging a vintage original 
Think about the value drop. Now it's valued around 2000 $. When refinished you probably wouldn't sell it for half.
You know, just think this thoroughly  :icon_thumright:

I am not selling it, so I'm not concerned much about it's value drop. I'd be pulling my hair out if I spent time fussing over a capricious collector's market anyway. I couldn't be much further from a vintage guitar fan. I like the 481, because they look and feel awesome, and seeing someone else playing one is VERY rare. I would question it's value in it's current condition anyway. A vintage "patina" is one thing, this "pee-tina" is another. Somebody might like it, but I haven't talked to anyone who's actually seen it in person that protested at the refinish idea! And I am a player, not a collector. I want this guitar front and center when I play on stage. So it needs to not look like urine. I'm not too worried about the noisy electronics since they can all be swapped out with a new loaded pickguard, that'll be a snap!

So I guess I'm now looking for a good luthier, hopefully in the midwest. Thanks for your input!

 

[stubhead]

I believe it largely depends on whether you want some kind of wood graining to show. If all you want is a solid color, you'd need to rough up that finish enough for a new one to stick. I mean, Van Halen used bicycle paint, Krylon WORKS if you're not squeamish. If you want an ultra-thin, gourmet-type nitro, it would have to be stripped all the way naked, and it could be very difficult to find a stripper that's not going to eat the binding. I find the whole vintage guitar thing to be tiring, and I applaud your courage - though I don't think I'd follow that path. One thing's for sure - you'll be knocking down the value of a genuine guitar, rather than the 70% to 90% of "vintage" Fenders and Gibsons. The counterfeiters go through stages - they've used up Strats, Teles and Les Pauls, but you can currently get a "vintage" Jazzmaster, any custom color you want, any year you want, ditto with Les Paul Jrs. Wait ten year, and they'll be onto the Rickenbackers. If somebody will cut the necks, bodies and make all the hardware for them!

Odd how those little rectangles of green paper have assumed such importance.

 

[T.Rex]

I believe it largely depends on whether you want some kind of wood graining to show. If all you want is a solid color, you'd need to rough up that finish enough for a new one to stick. I mean, Van Halen used bicycle paint, Krylon WORKS if you're not squeamish. If you want an ultra-thin, gourmet-type nitro, it would have to be stripped all the way naked, and it could be very difficult to find a stripper that's not going to eat the binding. I find the whole vintage guitar thing to be tiring, and I applaud your courage - though I don't think I'd follow that path. One thing's for sure - you'll be knocking down the value of a genuine guitar, rather than the 70% to 90% of "vintage" Fenders and Gibsons. The counterfeiters go through stages - they've used up Strats, Teles and Les Pauls, but you can currently get a "vintage" Jazzmaster, any custom color you want, any year you want, ditto with Les Paul Jrs. Wait ten year, and they'll be onto the Rickenbackers. If somebody will cut the necks, bodies and make all the hardware for them!

Odd how those little rectangles of green paper have assumed such importance.

Exactly, I just want the pee colored paint to look like snow colored white paint. And it's 100% opaque, so wood grain is not an issue. That potential damage to the binding from chemical strippers was what originally made me think using the lightly sanded original finish as a "primer" might just be the way to go. Just a light color coat, some clean up around the binding and then some clear coats. That's what I was thinking anyway.

This is the fourth electric guitar I've bought in 30 years, and I have every intention of using the cuss out of it!

Thanks for your advise and encouragement.

 

[Cagey]

Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do, and damn the consequences.

My first "real" guitar was a '61 Gibson Melody Maker. It was a pawn shop prize I got for $100 back in the early '70s. Finish was absolutely wrecked, frets were worn to a fare-thee-well, tuners were a cruel joke, on and on. But, it was a Gibson! The holy grail!

To make a long story short, I modified the hell out of it, including a new finish. New tuners, pickup, bridge, frets, nut, etc. Nothing left of the original guitar beyond the Mahogany and Rosewood it was made of. Everybody gave me grief over it, but it was the guitar I wanted when I was done, rather than the wreck it was when I found it.

Thing was, I loved that guitar. It felt... right. Past that, I didn't care. This was going to be the guitar I played, and that's what counts. You can force a sound to a large degree on an electric, so feel is really the primary thing. If it loves you, and you love it back, that's it. You're done. You gotta do what you gotta do.

I saw an almost identical '61 MM at a shop not too long ago that was in about the same shape mine was originally, and they wanted $750 for it. I had a real emotional response to it. But, the more I looked at it, the less I wanted it. It really wasn't that great of an instrument. Quite a piece of shite, truth be told. Had I hung on to mine in its original condition, could I get $750 for it? Probably. Would I have been able to have any fun with it that whole time? No. Is making $650 over 40 years a good investment? No. So, let someone else have it.

If you can't get along with the way a guitar looks or plays, dump it or modify it. Unless you're a collector, then all bets are off.

 

[T.Rex]

Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do, and damn the consequences.

My first "real" guitar was a '61 Gibson Melody Maker. It was a pawn shop prize I got for $100 back in the early '70s. Finish was absolutely wrecked, frets were worn to a fare-thee-well, tuners were a cruel joke, on and on. But, it was a Gibson! The holy grail!

To make a long story short, I modified the hell out of it, including a new finish. New tuners, pickup, bridge, frets, nut, etc. Nothing left of the original guitar beyond the Mahogany and Rosewood it was made of. Everybody gave me grief over it, but it was the guitar I wanted when I was done, rather than the wreck it was when I found it.

Thing was, I loved that guitar. It felt... right. Past that, I didn't care. This was going to be the guitar I played, and that's what counts. You can force a sound to a large degree on an electric, so feel is really the primary thing. If it loves you, and you love it back, that's it. You're done. You gotta do what you gotta do.

I saw an almost identical '61 MM at a shop not too long ago that was in about the same shape mine was originally, and they wanted $750 for it. I had a real emotional response to it. But, the more I looked at it, the less I wanted it. It really wasn't that great of an instrument. Quite a piece of shite, truth be told. Had I hung on to mine in its original condition, could I get $750 for it? Probably. Would I have been able to have any fun with it that whole time? No. Is making $650 over 40 years a good investment? No. So, let someone else have it.

If you can't get along with the way a guitar looks or plays, dump it or modify it. Unless you're a collector, then all bets are off.

I can identify with everything you said. And I love the way my Rickenbacker feels in my hands, and the way it "will" look and sound. My first electric was a Guild S300 that I modified heavily and should have never gotten rid of. I tried Les Pauls and Strats before I bought it. And that was back when the Gibson wasn't much more money. But I liked the way the Guild played and looked.

I bought a bunch of Apple stock 13 years ago. That was a good investment. I'm not looking for that when I play guitar.

 

[Max OLydian]

I know I'm taking my chances replying to a 10 month old topic, but...

First of all- T.Rex, great story about your 481 and the work you did.  A fine job, I must say.

I also have a Ricky 481 that I love.  It is now in need of some TLC, and I am just not sure what I can do with minimal impact to the value.  I noticed a lot of responses to this and the original post re: impact of mods/restorations on value, and thought maybe I could pick all y'all brains:

Natural maple finish in pretty good shape, but for some belt buckle scratches on the back, and some yellowing of the binding/truss cover.  I don't care much about the binding (it actually looks pretty nice against the natural maple body), but the scratches on the back go clear to the wood.  I'm hoping I can just repair the damaged area without refinishing the entire body?

Electronics is in pretty rough shape- one of the pickups already quit on me and I had to partially unwind it to repair it, the selector switch is jamming...  Any idea of the impact of that on the value?  And I'd actually like to replace the whole lot- the one thing I never liked about the 481 was the pickups (jeez, they're not *too* important now, are they?).  I'm guessing if I did replace the p'ups, I'd do best to just pull off the original pickguard and pop a new one on?  That's ok, because the pickguard is chipped up on that little finger near the low-E.

Needs a little work on the frets and fretboard too- and I'm just wondering about the impact of the finished fretboard.  It seems as if the frets are pretty much there to stay- I can't see how to replace them without doing a number on the finish- but on a 40-year-old guitar, there's some pretty serious wear on the some.  Anybody have any experience with something like this?  Also, some of the inlays have cracked- they're not loose, and don't interfere at all with playability, but I don't want them to get worse, and am unsure how to fix them.  Should they be torn out and replaced, or is it possible to fill them in without it looking stupid?

Thanks in advance to anybody who can lend a little advice!

 

[Cagey]

I'm not a big fan of "vintage" gear, but my understanding is that normal maintenance is not something that detracts from the value of such things. Nobody expects frets, switches, pots, etc. to last 40 years. Where they look at such things at all, it's more to date the instrument because there are a lot of counterfeits out there. Not to disparage Rickenbackers at all, but I don't think there's a big market for old ones so there aren't a lotta counterfeits out there. In contrast, there are more "vintage" Strats out there than Fender ever made in the first place. Every other day somebody finds an old Strat in their grandmother's attic or under their dead brother's bed. 

As for how you'd deal with repair/replacement of wear parts, you have to expect that there will be evidence of it. In the case of an old Ricky, I might try talking the owner out of any neck finish at all. They used Bubinga rather than Rosewood like everybody else, and it doesn't need a finish. But, it's a feel thing. If you like a finished fretboard, one can certainly be applied. Just throw money at it.

 

[mayfly]

I've owned a bunch of old rickenbackers, including one that I had re-fretted 3 times.  Because of this I feel qualified to comment

Regarding vintage old ricks and repairs - I would not worry about originality.  The old ones are nice guitars, but the new ones are made by the same people using the same methods.  There is no "the old ones are better because..." thing going on with Rickenbackers and as such the old ones are not stupidly valuable.  Do the repairs and enjoy the instrument.

Regarding the wiring - Rickenbacker has all the original parts, except for those particular pickups.  However, they do know how to re-wire them (and they have the right wire).  They may be able to re-wire that guy for a fee.

Regarding re-fretting the fingerboard, It's a PITA as the finish is over top of the frets.  However, that's how the old maple neck fenders were done, so it's doable to fix it and people have dealt with similar things before.  When I got mine done the first time, we pulled the frets (which damaged the finish), then sanded the finish off the fingerboard (while leveling it), then re-finished the neck (and drop filled any cracks on the side of the neck), then installed the frets on top of the finish, then leveled them.  Seemed to work.  YMMV.

Regarding the finish on the back - Ah, just get it fixed. 

Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[mayfly]

Forgot to say:  Regarding the pickguard, just replace it.  These guys have a good reputation:

http://www.pickguardian.com/pickguardian/RickGuitars.html

And yes, you can re-finish the back of the guitar without touching the front.  Just mask it at the binding.

 

[T.Rex]

I know I'm taking my chances replying to a 10 month old topic, but...

First of all- T.Rex, great story about your 481 and the work you did.  A fine job, I must say.

I also have a Ricky 481 that I love.  It is now in need of some TLC, and I am just not sure what I can do with minimal impact to the value.  I noticed a lot of responses to this and the original post re: impact of mods/restorations on value, and thought maybe I could pick all y'all brains:

Natural maple finish in pretty good shape, but for some belt buckle scratches on the back, and some yellowing of the binding/truss cover.  I don't care much about the binding (it actually looks pretty nice against the natural maple body), but the scratches on the back go clear to the wood.  I'm hoping I can just repair the damaged area without refinishing the entire body?

Electronics is in pretty rough shape- one of the pickups already quit on me and I had to partially unwind it to repair it, the selector switch is jamming...  Any idea of the impact of that on the value?  And I'd actually like to replace the whole lot- the one thing I never liked about the 481 was the pickups (jeez, they're not *too* important now, are they?).  I'm guessing if I did replace the p'ups, I'd do best to just pull off the original pickguard and pop a new one on?  That's ok, because the pickguard is chipped up on that little finger near the low-E.

Needs a little work on the frets and fretboard too- and I'm just wondering about the impact of the finished fretboard.  It seems as if the frets are pretty much there to stay- I can't see how to replace them without doing a number on the finish- but on a 40-year-old guitar, there's some pretty serious wear on the some.  Anybody have any experience with something like this?  Also, some of the inlays have cracked- they're not loose, and don't interfere at all with playability, but I don't want them to get worse, and am unsure how to fix them.  Should they be torn out and replaced, or is it possible to fill them in without it looking stupid?

Thanks in advance to anybody who can lend a little advice!

Thanks for the compliments! It turned out very well and has nearly become my main guitar at this point. As you point out, it really (perhaps unfortunately) almost comes down to as a vintage instrument versus updating and better appearance. I obviously was more interested in the latter. While these instruments are somewhat rare, $2K +/- isn't really a princely sum for a made in the USA instrument of good lineage. You could drop that on a far less unique new instrument at any of the usual domestic manufacturers pretty quickly today.

I love the way these guitars look, and play. So I threw caution to the wind regarding it's value. Since my goal was/is to play it, I planned to replace the electronics before I even bought it. I was exposed to a friend's brand new one in the 1970's, and the pickups were the weak link right out of the gate with these guitars in my opinion. Luckily, the design of the guitar makes this a pretty easy thing to fix. The only "kicker" is you will almost certainly need to have a new pickguard made due to the size of the holes cut in the original pickguard to accommodate their giant (albeit, cool looking!) hum buckers.

The side benefit of this is that you can keep your original pickguard/electronics intact for any "vintage value" concerns. I took the original pickguard off, cut out a cardboard template with modifications (better curves and smaller humbucker holes) and had a local plastic sign maker make the new pick guards for me.

Regarding the fretboard, like the rest of my particular instrument, it was in excellent shape. But ugly. The clear finish had yellowed and the triangle fret markers almost disappeared under the damaged finish. But the frets were like brand new! So I sanded off the clear finish, stained the fingerboard with ebony stain (to better match my ebony fingerboard guitars) from Stew Mac, applied shiny new (and slightly larger, requiring some trimming) fret marker inlay stickers from inlaysticker.com and gave it a light clear coat when I applied the clear coat on the rest of the guitar. The clear coat almost completely covered the already very thin edges of the inlay stickers, and the original ones are still under there for the "purist". It looks much better than it sounds like it would!

 

[stubhead]

...applied shiny new (and slightly larger, requiring some trimming) fret marker inlay stickers from inlaysticker.com...

Manomanoman, is that ever a GREAT idea! I mean sure, you sticking them on, fixing your guitar back up to warm the cockles of your heart. And when I saw the pickups, I could see why it's probably not throwing money out the window - it's already ruinously improved. I wouldn't know how to act around a guitar that needed fixin' but I wasn't "allowed to" by the Vintage Truthfulness Whiffer Inquisition Tribunal (V-TWIT for short). I've owned a few those guitars, but they didn't last long. And I'm still highly curious about just what happened to ALL THOSE OLD STRATS that got "fixed up" with a big honking humbucker route, a Floyd Rose and scraped to the dickens from all that damn pink paint that mutated from Dakota red to something far less, ahem... "manly?" I sure would like to buy one of those things...

But that sticker company, whoo. Is that like printing money? I sure wish I would have one of those ideas...


I mean, even if it falls off in a few months you certainly got 20 smackers worth of pleasure out of it already, right?  :headbang1: