Recording System Nightmare.

[Volitions Advocate]

Trying to set up our studio for recording the band. I'm really... really.... REALLY frustrated right now so i'll skip the pleasentries and be succinct.

Preamp/Interface:

http://www.mackie.com/products/800r/index.html

For a soundcard in the computer we're using a Creative Audigy 2 ZS which has all the digital inputs (supposedly)
here is a picture of the front panel.

Our drummer bought the mackie preamp thinking it had a firewire interface, which apparently it doesn't.
We don't want to shell out for the stupid... controller workstation or whatever you call it because we're not nitpicky enough to need something physical just to do what the software will do anyway.

So here is what I need clarification on..
  Does using an optical or S/PDIF cable (which is apparently the same thing) allow you to receive the audio as data rather than an audio stream.  The whole Idea is to be able to record all the channels on the preamp to separate tracks in the software (we're using cubase)  You can do this without a "controller" can't you?  ...  either we go directly from the preamp into the digial inputs of my sound card or we have to get something that is an interface between the digial signals and the computer.  something that converts optical to firewire (which a controller would do yes?)

Anyway.  Lemme know what I'm taking for granted, because I must be doing something dumb.

 

[taez555]

What exactly is it doing right now?

I should start by saying I've never used any of the gear you have, but I do have my own motu setup and a degree in in audio engineering.  So I should know something, right?

First off, you should never need a controller for this.  That's mostly about mixing and just making it more user friendly.  If the 8 input preamp can be used for discreet recording, my guess is your best bet is using the spdif interface as an analog interface would require 8 indivdual cables and inputs to the computer.  The pure digitial signal would covert all 8 tracks to digitial and input it to the computer as 8 individual tracks.  If the preamp actually can do do that, and it's not, I'd say it's something with your interface setup not set properly.  There should be a way, in the computer, to adjust how you recieve the audio from the preamp.   It might be as simple as the audio progam itself.  You may need to asign the inputs.  Or.... it could be a univeral input routing matrix that you need to assign before you even get into the recording program.



That probably won't help you at all.

erik

 

[Volitions Advocate]

no what you said. mostly made sense.
We're using Cubase Essentials 4.  We coudln't afford Nuendo

I've learned a bit more since my last post but this is what we've got.
The sound card is an Audigy 2 ZS

I have the Optical out of the Mackie hooked into the Optical in on the soundcard.
and yes we're trying to get the 8 individual tracks.  Which the preamp should be doing.

so we've actually got i tall hooked up.  My first problem was in the recording device manager I tried to find the "optical" device and set that as default (all the different ports like Line in 2/mic in 2 and CD input (which is RCA are all listed as different devices underwindwos even though they're on the same card, which I think makes things easy) and I couldn't find it because optical is actually S/PDIF apparently.. but I didn't figure that out till later today.  So I set that as default.

But its not converting it into 8 digital tracks.

We have Cubase set to accept "Creative ASIO" as the recording device.  Which should give us 8 channels for inputs right?  Like when you choose what input goes to which track in the timeline window (Creative ASIO 1 - 8). but we don't. we only get Left and Right.  Which makes me believe that the soundcard isn't actually set up to do full digital S/PDIF.

If i'm right, that means we have 2 options.  Get a new soundcard that can actually do it.  Or buy the controller that will convert the optical signal into 8 digial signals via Firewire.

Does that sound about right?
Creative made a bunch of different models of this sound card but the front bezel they made (the one pictured above) was the same for all the models.  So even though theres an S/PDIF in on the front doesn't actually mean the soundcard supports its full functionality. Which is why we only get Stereo.

Thats my guess. What do you think? So I sound like I have a Vague Idea what i'm talking about... or do i just sound like a complete amateur?

 

[taez555]

Once you're in the digital realm(the interface converting to spdif) it shouldn't matter whether you have 2 stereo tracks or 100 tracks coming in.  Digital can deal with it all.  If your basic interface is meant to handle and convernt many different tracks I don't see why it's not breaking it up once it hits the computer.  Again, a controller  is generally for making it easier to mix with(hands on, you get to turn knobs, etc), it's generally not a converter.   

I'd say, before you go spending money on more stuff, play with what you have.  It still sounds like you have the right tools, just the internal  computer settings are set incorrectly.

 

[Volitions Advocate]

hmm.. well he's going to get on the phone with mackie tomorrow to see what they can tell us. and I"ll get on Creative's case and see what solutions they give us.
I'll post what i find.

 

[Volitions Advocate]

link to a thread i posted in the Creative forum:

http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=soundblaster&thread.id=135580

 

[ByteFrenzy]

This thread seems to be related to your issues: http://forum.doom9.org/archive/index.php/t-111125.html

But frankly, after doing some searching for 'Creative ASIO' I do not really get the impression that this card is all that great for what you're trying to do.

 

[jimh]

Hi Guys.

VA.....I think you may get a bit stuck here......

The Mackie's optical output uses a protocol called ADAT Lightpipe.  This is a 'multi-channel' protocol which allows you to squeeze 8 audio's down one optical cable (depending on sample rates etc). 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADAT_Lightpipe

The Creative's optical input (and output) is S/PDIF which is stereo / 5.1 surround sound only.  Not really mutli channel in the sense of multi-tracking a band.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPDIF

Unfortunately they both use the same type of connector (which is called a TOSLink), but the two protocols are not compatible.

You'd need an audio card with an optical ADAT input in order to make the computer 'see' a multichannel input.  Something along the lines of this
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProFireLightbridge.html
That particular one would be overkill for what you need to do (32 ADAT inputs), but that's the sort of thing.  A bit of www searching will probably get you something more akin to your needs.

Hope that helps.
Jim

 

[Superlizard]

The SPDIF in's on those soundcards aren't typically used the way you'd like them to be used; they're certainly multi-channel, but generally used movie-style (i.e. 5.1 surround or what have you).

I think you're gonna need something else than what Creative has to offer in their *home-PC* lineup, as that Mackie seems to only use optical for their "outs"...?

Either that, or there's some *other* Mackie piece that interfaces correctly (optically) with the Mackie piece you have.

Also - unless you didn't mention, there's no indication of any mixer (software or otherwise) involved with your rig.

One thing you could do, is get a little mixer with enough mic preamps, run that out in stereo to the Creative card.  It would work, but not optimum.

These are my guesses based on the info you provided - nothing set in stone here.

 

[Superlizard]

You'd need an audio card with an optical ADAT input in order to make the computer 'see' a multichannel input.  SOmething along the lines of this
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProFireLightbridge.html
That particular one would be overkill for what you need to do (32 ADAT inoputs), but that's the sort of thing.  A bit of www searching will probably get you something more akin to your needs.

Hope that helps.
Jim

Good catch... along these lines, I believe E-MU does the ADAT inputs as well (I have an E-MU 1820m, and there's a little daughter-card with ADAT - but I don't do ADAT).

 

[jimh]

Superlizard is right.  :icon_thumright:

E-mu do a product.  the 1010 PCI card....
http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=142&subcategory=191&product=15527

This would be perfect for what you'd need.  It's about £110 here in the UK, which is around US $160/170 or thereabouts.
Ironically,  E-mu is owned by Creative, which is where the problem came from 

 

[Volitions Advocate]

i think you guys solved my problem!
That makes perfect sense.
So the Creative card does have all the cabability of true S/PDIF. but its not what I need.
they use the same cord but I need ADAT Lightpipe, and everything they said makes sense about the sample rate.  Our plan was to record in 48kHz. All that talk about ADAT devices not being in synch makes sense too. there a clock interface on the back of the mackie that you use to string them together.  At which point that M-Audio box would be a good investment.  But we're not going to be doing it that way.  That soundcard looks like the ticket here.

@lizard

The mixer is a combination of the preamp and the software.  The front panel of the mackie has all the gain and impedance controls and phantom power and all that.  And then the mixdown would be done inside Cubase.
http://www.mackie.com/home/showimage.html?u=/products/800r/images/ZOOMED_Onyx800R.jpg

If i come up with anything else I'll post it.  And be sure I"ll be posting recordings too.

 

[AndyG]

The SPDIF in's on those soundcards aren't typically used the way you'd like them to be used; they're certainly multi-channel, but generally used movie-style (i.e. 5.1 surround or what have you).

I think you're gonna need something else than what Creative has to offer in their *home-PC* lineup, as that Mackie seems to only use optical for their "outs"...?

Either that, or there's some *other* Mackie piece that interfaces correctly (optically) with the Mackie piece you have.

Also - unless you didn't mention, there's no indication of any mixer (software or otherwise) involved with your rig.

One thing you could do, is get a little mixer with enough mic preamps, run that out in stereo to the Creative card.  It would work, but not optimum.

These are my guesses based on the info you provided - nothing set in stone here.

Actually, SPIDIF is a 2 channel digital protocol ... left and right.  The reason that some computers and home theatres use this standard for 5.1 (or LCRS, or 7.1 etc) is becasue the signal is encoded on the way out, and decoded on the way in, but the physical wire itself is carrying only 2 channels.  Some boxes have the optical input, and others use the good old fashioned RCA connector.

The ADAT "lightpipe" is a true multichannel digital standard.  Many manufacturers including Digidesign, MOTU, Apogee, M-Audio, and Presonus make boxes that accept this signal, and will route the channels accordingly in your software (where mic #1 shows up on digital input 1 and so on).

From the looks of things, your sound card can accept stereo signals only (or encoded surround signals, if you have the decoding software).  For consumer use, true multichannel digital audio simply doesn't exist, and unfortunately the card you have is a consumer card.

Good luck with your recording!

 

[AndyG]

Once you're in the digital realm(the interface converting to spdif) it shouldn't matter whether you have 2 stereo tracks or 100 tracks coming in.   Digital can deal with it all.  If your basic interface is meant to handle and convernt many different tracks I don't see why it's not breaking it up once it hits the computer.  Again, a controller  is generally for making it easier to mix with(hands on, you get to turn knobs, etc), it's generally not a converter.   

I'd say, before you go spending money on more stuff, play with what you have.  It still sounds like you have the right tools, just the internal  computer settings are set incorrectly.

Sorry, but I have to correct you, as what you say is simply not true. 

There are only a few digital standards that have been widely accepted for pro-sumer use ... SPDIF, AES/EBU, and ADAT.  None of these can handle 100 channels.  Once inside your computer, yes, you can mix hundreds of tracks (if the processor is powerful enough), but what comes in and what gets spit out is determined by one of these digital protocols.

A firewire connection into the computer is also a slightly different animal, as firewire carries data, as opposed to digital audio (the difference is subtle, but still different!)  That's why you don't see firewire ports on professional consoles like SSLs or Studers.  These consoles only deal with AES, SPDIF, or lightpipe.  I know that there are manufacturers (Mackie being one) that offer firewire outputs, but that requires the computer to have the appropriate drives to understand the information that is being sent via firewire.  Like I said, it is data, and NOT audio.

 

[taez555]

Once you're in the digital realm(the interface converting to spdif) it shouldn't matter whether you have 2 stereo tracks or 100 tracks coming in.   Digital can deal with it all.  If your basic interface is meant to handle and convernt many different tracks I don't see why it's not breaking it up once it hits the computer.  Again, a controller  is generally for making it easier to mix with(hands on, you get to turn knobs, etc), it's generally not a converter.   

I'd say, before you go spending money on more stuff, play with what you have.  It still sounds like you have the right tools, just the internal  computer settings are set incorrectly.

Sorry, but I have to correct you, as what you say is simply not true. 

There are only a few digital standards that have been widely accepted for pro-sumer use ... SPDIF, AES/EBU, and ADAT.  None of these can handle 100 channels.  Once inside your computer, yes, you can mix hundreds of tracks (if the processor is powerful enough), but what comes in and what gets spit out is determined by one of these digital protocols.

A firewire connection into the computer is also a slightly different animal, as firewire carries data, as opposed to digital audio (the difference is subtle, but still different!)  That's why you don't see firewire ports on professional consoles like SSLs or Studers.  These consoles only deal with AES, SPDIF, or lightpipe.  I know that there are manufacturers (Mackie being one) that offer firewire outputs, but that requires the computer to have the appropriate drives to understand the information that is being sent via firewire.  Like I said, it is data, and NOT audio.

Shit, you're totally correct.  My bad.  I should know better than that.  I guess it's probably not a good idea to reply to technical questions at midnight after drinking way too much.

 

[Volitions Advocate]

(the difference is subtle, but still different!)  That's why you don't see firewire ports on professional consoles like SSLs or Studers. 

Thats one of the reasons we want to avoid getting a workstation. because it iwll convert the light pipe into Firewire.
Which would be convenient but might affect fidelity and certainly affect latency.

I'm thinking direct into an ADAT compatible sound card is the way to go on this.

 

[AndyG]

(the difference is subtle, but still different!)  That's why you don't see firewire ports on professional consoles like SSLs or Studers. 

Thats one of the reasons we want to avoid getting a workstation. because it iwll convert the light pipe into Firewire.
Which would be convenient but might affect fidelity and certainly affect latency.

I'm thinking direct into an ADAT compatible sound card is the way to go on this.

Yes and no ... all recording systems are not created equal!

Latency is usually caused by the analog to digital conversion itself.  Once your audio has become 1's and 0's, everything pretty much happens at the speed of light (with the exception of plug-in processing, but that's a whole other topic!).  I mentioned in another thread that in our brave, new, digital world, everything happens at the "speed of processing", because the trip from your guitar (or drums or voice) has to go through 2 conversions ... A to D to record it, and D to A for you to hear it back.

Fidelity is based on how good the A to D conversion is.  Again, once digitized, changing formats will not affect the signal.

This brings me to another point ... you'll get 8 tracks into the computer just fine, but how are you going to listen to them back?  That Mackie preamp is not a mixer.  If you are going to use the computer's sound card for monitoring, you're gonna be in for a latency nightmare, because the signal will have to travel through your computer's innards before reaching your speakers ... not an ideal design for overdubbing.  The EMU card has ADAT in and out, and SPDIF in and out.  Therefore, to use the card for monitoring purposes, you'll need speakers that accept a SPDIF signal.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I know I wouldn't want to spend money on a piece of gear that doesn't solve ALL of the problems.  I've got a ton of home recording experience, so I'll follow this thread if you have any other questions.

 

[Volitions Advocate]

Studio monitors are in the works for later.
for now we just have a nice set of headphones plugged into the soundcard.

 

[Superlizard]

E-MU stuff:

http://www.emu.com/products/welcome.asp?category=505

For example, the E-MU 1616M PCI has:

The E-MU 1616M PCI features:
Mastering grade 24-bit/192kHz converters - the same A/D converters used in Digidesign's flagship ProTools HD 192 I/O Interface delivering an amazing 120dB signal-to-noise ratio
Hardware-accelerated effects - over 600 standalone and E-MU Power FX VST plug-in effects with no CPU overhead
PatchMix™ DSP zero-latency hardware mixing and monitoring - with super-flexible patchbay - no external mixer needed
Comprehensive analog and digital I/O plus MIDI - MicroDock M offers 16 inputs/16 outputs plus MIDO I/O - everything from balanced analog and turntable inputs to ADAT and S/PDIF (switchable to AES/EBU)

and specifically:

Digital I/O

S/PDIF:

- 2 in/2 out coaxial (transformer coupled)
- 2 in/2 out optical (software switched with ADAT)
- AES/EBU or S/PDIF format (software selectable)

ADAT:

- 8 channels, 24-bit @ 44.1/48kHz
- 4 channels, 24-bit @ 88.2/96kHz (S-MUX compatible)
- 2 channels, 24-bit @ 176.4/192kHz

E-MU uses an app called "E-MU Patch Mix DSP" which allows you to mix, route and do all sorts of stuff.

I have a somewhat older version of this get-up which is called the E-MU 1820m - pretty much tit-for-tat with all the features; including the kick-ass converters.

Here's pics of the 1616M (notice the ADAT ins/outs):

the actual 1010 PCI card (included) is here; yet more ADAT:

As far as latency goes (using ASIO stuff and FX), if you have a relatively speedy PC you should be able to set latency 'tween 2 and 5 ms.

Only time I've ran into a problem with latency is when I've added full-blown, hi-processing-time reverb to the FX while recording... but that's not necessary at all... you can add super-processing FX after recording.

Alternatively, they have a not-as-fancy setup called the 1212M - it doesn't include the breakout box, but 2 PCI cards (1010 being one of them).

Another manufacturer you might want to take a peek at is Lynx:

http://www.lynxstudio.com/index.asp

 

[Volitions Advocate]

e-mu 1212 is on its way