Recessed Gotoh 510 cavity

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

It played like a dream

 

[JohnL2112]

Note, the attached pictures are not mine. Found on the internet of someone doing a setup.

This is the T1502/1802 rout. Note the trem posts don't go into spring cavity.

I know of course that the AZ is not exactly as thick as a Strat... I don't think its thicker than a Strat though. Maybe they routed a shallower spring cavity. I'll have to figure out how to measure it exactly. But given the picture, is that maybe a shallower rout than Warmoth tried? It appears to be a really subtle thing.

 

[stratamania]

The other thing to bear in mind other than the rout itself is how the rest of an AZ is designed and built compared to a Fender replacement neck heel that Warmoth adheres to. It does not take much of a difference of depth or angle of other areas of a guitar to have an influence on another area.

You will probably find on an AZ that the neck sits slightly lower in the pocket than a Strat type neck and pocket.

EDIT: The AZ also has a shorter trem block than normally used with the 510.

 

[aarontunes]

Remember that building parts vs complete guitars is a different set of rules. For example, when you design a replacement body you try to accommodate as many different kinds bridges as you can. This might man making routs slightly deeper, or longer than you would if you were designing the same body for only a single, specific bridge.


[youtube]https://youtu.be/X9m_XDOs1Ho[/youtube]

 

[JohnL2112]

Aaron.

Yeah, I want to be clear, I am not complaining. I admit personally that with the existence of suhr modern/charvel dk mod/Ibanez AZ, I am a tad enthusiastic about “backporting” as much of their innovation back into strats (well, soloists).

That by itself is probably pretty at odds with all the people who love strats for being strats.

 

[jay4321]

[quote author=The Aaron]As a point of reference, we sell very, very few semi-recessed Wilky routs.
[/quote]

I have one and it doesn’t look good. I’m over the Wilky too.

As to the Gotoh 510 - which has been without a doubt my favorite trem - I wouldn’t think to recess it.

 

[rauchman]

[quote author=The Aaron]As a point of reference, we sell very, very few semi-recessed Wilky routs.

I have one and it doesn’t look good. I’m over the Wilky too.

As to the Gotoh 510 - which has been without a doubt my favorite trem - I wouldn’t think to recess it.
[/quote]

Curious what you like better about the Gotoh 510 over the Wilkinson?

 

[jay4321]

If you can hold off a few days I’ll see if I can do a more detailed comparison over the long weekend. I can say both feel great and operate smoothly but that’s about it, everything from aesthetics on favors the 510 for me. I want to get a look at the studs and a couple other things while I’m at it, take some photos etc

 

[rlefty]

A semi-recessed rout similar to the Wilkinson one could potentially work with a 510, because the studs would not have to be mounted in the recessed area. I personally find the semi-recess rout unattractive, but that's just me. Maybe we can explore that someday, but probably not soon.


As a point of reference, we sell very, very few semi-recessed Wilky routs.

The semi-recess is something I'd 100% be interested in for my next build (that is: if it was available today I'd spec one out and place the order, today).

The point of it for me is that I like to get a little bit of flutter going with a non-Floyd, as well as the two way "wavy" kind of vibrato with the bar. I prefer the soloist body style since I'm a smaller person and also grab the 720 mod since I think it just looks better with the overhang not way above the body. And I certainly like the trem to be parallel with the strings/body because (in my experience) it returns to zero-point better that way.

Also, I'm left handed, so Warmoth is about the only game in town other than the newly released (for lefties) Ibanez AZ.

And not for nothing, but my opinion regarding the Wilkinson (as opposed to the Gotoh 510) is that it's just not nice to look at. Maybe that's a popular opinion, maybe it's an unpopular opinion, but the non linear saddles and extra "wing" just don't do it for me. So maybe there's a good reason why there are very few of them sold with a recess, which wouldn't apply to the 510.

BTW Aaron I've really been digging your youtube videos.

 

[JohnL2112]

@rlefty, you articulated this better than I. I have an Ibanez AZ with its “basically a 510 with titanium saddles” bridge. The semi-recess is very subtle.

In the absence of it though, I think with just a bit of neck shim, I could raise the bridge off the a strat/soloist body just enough to make it fully floating instead of “dive bomb only”. As you can see in my attached picture, that’s how my Rich Harris setup AZ kinda already is. The recess just gives me a little extra room for back-bar. (It’s not 720 modded so no shim needed)

I think an “all access neck joint” from warmoth is more needed at this point.

 

[stratamania]

If it helps anyone a Gotoh 510 will float on a Warmoth body and neck without recesses or neck shims. It will flutter easily and on one of the Warmoth's I have with a 510 I just checked and I can pull up so the open G goes up a minor third. If I was wanting to do more aggressive use I would be looking at using a Floyd of some type at that point.

 

[rlefty]

If it helps anyone a Gotoh 510 will float on a Warmoth body and neck without recesses or neck shims. It will flutter easily and on one of the Warmoth's I have with a 510 I just checked and I can pull up so the open G goes up a minor third. If I was wanting to do more aggressive use I would be looking at using a Floyd of some type at that point.

Are you using a body with a pickguard? I had a strat-style body with a 510 (with a pickguard) and had the same experience as you. On my soloist with the 720 mod, I get just about a minor second pull on the G before hitting the back. I wouldn't mind having a soloist body, top routed with a pickguard, though (that's another discussion).

For me it's more about keeping the neck overhang low and compensating with the semi-recess. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me; if you're going to float your trem at all, then having more space underneath it just leads to less body-banging.

 

[stratamania]

Are you using a body with a pickguard?

Yes a strat-style body with a 510 (with a pickguard)

For me it's more about keeping the neck overhang low and compensating with the semi-recess. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me; if you're going to float your trem at all, then having more space underneath it just leads to less body-banging.

On a soloist with the 720 mod I can see where you are coming from. But see my earlier post in the thread about the Ibanez AZ, it is designed and built that way and has a shorter than normal trem block also.

Guitar design overall is about a lot of geometry and remember with Warmoth, they are a parts manufacturer mainly adhering to a customizable replacement parts direction conforming to Fender specs from a point in time. Once you have a certain amount of geometry you are adhering to and having to make sure that a gazillion parts combinations can fit together it is different than Ibanez who is selling complete instruments.

So back to the point I am sure Warmoth could make a Soloist with a pickguard or various other combinations but it will ultimately end up with how many might end up being sold. One way to do a soloist with a pickguard might be to start with a strat body or routed body blank and reshape or shape it and make a pickguard to fit.

Or a Floyd Rose NFT is an off menu option that works well and is recessed would work with a soloist and 720 mod.

 

[rlefty]

Yes a strat-style body with a 510 (with a pickguard)

On a soloist with the 720 mod I can see where you are coming from. But see my earlier post in the thread about the Ibanez AZ, it is designed and built that way and has a shorter than normal trem block also.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm referring to a semi-recess only. Like Aaron mentioned, there's no need to change any geometry, just add a semi-recess behind the posts. Exactly the same way they already do for the Wilkinson, but a different rout. The AZ and Charvel DK24 (for example, though not available left handed) use a full recess.

WRT the pickguard on a soloist, yeah that's a different want In that case they'd have to design the pickguard itself and the rout for it from scratch. I only really mentioned that because it obviates the 720 mod. I think it would look pretty slick, though...

 

[johnnyj]

any news on this consideration @aarontunes? i can also testify that the 510 works really fine with recessed guitars and if you have the recess you can do way more wonderful things with it (crazy upbends, setting up the trem a bit more backwards for more downpull throw etc.). the last guitar i had this on was a sterling petrucci which recessed cave fits perfectly the 510 without any wood operations. once you have the recess freedom you can use this thing really close to a floyd.

one more thought on the above statement that the wilkinson with the recess dont sell well, here some ideas why people better go with 510 if you have to chose:
- maybe its just me but the wilkinson vs 100 is way more ugly than the 510 in its various editons and will optically mismatch any classical appearing instrument while the 510 optically retrofits a fender bridge very good
- the gotoh comes in alot of different editions, the most important difference is that they offer 54mm string spacing and 52.5mm which is really cool, also further options of block type, saddles etc. are possible
- 510 route as i understand correctly will also be compatible with the new wilkinson trem with the locking saddles wich looks wonderfully (not tested yet).

so having this wonderful and modern trem supported fully with a fitting (semi-)recess would just be spectacular.

 

[Rick]

It's alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[stratamania]

- 510 route as i understand correctly will also be compatible with the new wilkinson trem with the locking saddles wich looks wonderfully (not tested yet).

It does see my Mahogany Strat build in the signature below. It has one and the build thread has the details of which one you want and what posts to use etc.

 

[aarontunes]

any news on this consideration @aarontunes? i can also testify that the 510 works really fine with recessed guitars and if you have the recess you can do way more wonderful things with it (crazy upbends, setting up the trem a bit more backwards for more downpull throw etc.). the last guitar i had this on was a sterling petrucci which recessed cave fits perfectly the 510 without any wood operations. once you have the recess freedom you can use this thing really close to a floyd.

one more thought on the above statement that the wilkinson with the recess dont sell well, here some ideas why people better go with 510 if you have to chose:
- maybe its just me but the wilkinson vs 100 is way more ugly than the 510 in its various editons and will optically mismatch any classical appearing instrument while the 510 optically retrofits a fender bridge very good
- the gotoh comes in alot of different editions, the most important difference is that they offer 54mm string spacing and 52.5mm which is really cool, also further options of block type, saddles etc. are possible
- 510 route as i understand correctly will also be compatible with the new wilkinson trem with the locking saddles wich looks wonderfully (not tested yet).

so having this wonderful and modern trem supported fully with a fitting (semi-)recess would just be spectacular.

It's not going to happen any time soon, and more than likely won't ever happen. The recess doesn't work with Warmoth bodies. We've already tried it. Because our trem cavities are made to be as universally compatible as possible they are routed slightly deeper. When we tried recessing the 510 the studs poked through the into the trem cavity.

One of the downsides of trying to be everything to everybody.

 

[PFDarkside]

It’s funny this popped up, I’ve seen a few lately and wondered the same thing.

 

[supertruper1988]

It's not going to happen any time soon, and more than likely won't ever happen. The recess doesn't work with Warmoth bodies. We've already tried it. Because our trem cavities are made to be as universally compatible as possible they are routed slightly deeper. When we tried recessing the 510 the studs poked through the into the trem cavity.

One of the downsides of trying to be everything to everybody.

Does the semi recessed wilkinson route work with the 510 to provide more pull up range? Just a random thought on this after seeing this thread last week.