Real amps vs fake amps

[TBurst Std]

I'll chime in some

I'm with Cagey's and Mayfly's camp. Total AXE II fan (used to have an Ultra for years).
I sold a number (all of them) of nice tube amps as yes it delivers that well.
If you are talking playing live through FOH or recording, the benefits become even greater.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

So is that the first time you've read the first post then? Weird. But yes, there are things I've said in that first post that agree with your opinions, which is what makes it so weird that you thought I was attacking them so much.

Yeah, if you don't have access to a Bogner, and you want to play through one, you're screwed whether you have a profiler or not. The only difference I guess is that if you're lucky, someone on the internet might have profiled one and you might be able to download it.

As for the clips, yes, those are still planned. I think by the time I have done everything it will be early in the new year before they get uploaded. I might start a new thread for them.

You asked for articles, I linked them. Now they're the wrong kind of article.  I also do the wiring Q&As on SD's facebook page roughly once a month. No, I don't want congratulations, you just didn't seem to believe me that I'd written articles. I hesitated to link them as I knew you'd pick holes in them instead.

That's interesting about the modeller -> power amp, although I'm not sure why you couldn't still have a pedalboard in front of you. Was it just a matter of practicality?

Actually, your first post was the first one I read, yet you still found reason to contradict what I was saying, even after you bothered to post the same exact thing I was saying in the first place.  No worries, we're all entitled to a few mistakes.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Hmm, Ace says Slash's tone is "all him," and he uses a pedalboard, which, according to Ace is right in front of him.  No modeling effects there.  I just thought I'd throw that in.

There's a wah on the floor on stage for Slash to use, and the rest of the pedals are on a pedal board off stage where Ace works. Ace operates the pedals at the appropriate times, just with his hands. He has a cue list for each song with the lyrics printed out and then notes as to what pedals to activate and when. Always wondered how Slash's tone was changing so much without him operating any pedals!

I agree there are no modelling effects on his board, but are you sure you do? For example there's a Dunlop MC401 Boost/Line Driver on there, a volume boost used for solos. You've been pretty explicit in your opinion that a volume boost is "modelling". Or have you seen the light?  :sign13:

Cagey, those parameters on the Axe FX II sound insane! Is it literally a case that you can bring the parameter up, play your guitar, and then twist a knob back and forth to see how much "cathode squish" you like? Or is it more like you load up a piece of software on your PC and design an amp using these deeper parameters?

As for the stdio.h thing. I bet the editor isn't written in C (maybe C++, but I still kinda doubt that). But I wouldn't be surprised at all if the software that the unit itself runs is C or C++. It's still by far the best language when every CPU cycle matters. Not sure what happens when you call printf() on an AFX though - maybe it plays a power chord through the output.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Hmm, Ace says Slash's tone is "all him," and he uses a pedalboard, which, according to Ace is right in front of him.  No modeling effects there.  I just thought I'd throw that in.

There's a wah on the floor on stage for Slash to use, and the rest of the pedals are on a pedal board off stage where Ace works. Ace operates the pedals at the appropriate times, just with his hands. He has a cue list for each song with the lyrics printed out and then notes as to what pedals to activate and when. Always wondered how Slash's tone was changing so much without him operating any pedals!

I agree there are no modelling effects on his board, but are you sure you do? For example there's a Dunlop MC401 Boost/Line Driver on there, a volume boost used for solos. You've been pretty explicit in your opinion that a volume boost is "modelling". Or have you seen the light?  :sign13:

Cagey, those parameters on the Axe FX II sound insane! Is it literally a case that you can bring the parameter up, play your guitar, and then twist a knob back and forth to see how much "cathode squish" you like? Or is it more like you load up a piece of software on your PC and design an amp using these deeper parameters?

As for the stdio.h thing. I bet the editor isn't written in C (maybe C++, but I still kinda doubt that). But I wouldn't be surprised at all if the software that the unit itself runs is C or C++. It's still by far the best language when every CPU cycle matters. Not sure what happens when you call printf() on an AFX though - maybe it plays a power chord through the output.

Have I seen the light?  Of course I have, I've been watching you stumble around in the dark, looking for it. :tard:

The point is, when you modify a sound from a factory device, it's modeling.  You are changing the parameter of the sound.  End of story.  It doesn't matter if it's volume, treble, an EQ pedal, etc.  This is remedial stuff and common knowledge.  I'm sorry you're having difficulty with understanding this concept and quite frankly, I'm tired of trying to help you.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

That's fine, so Slash does have (your definition of) modelling on his pedal board I guess. Just wanted to understand. And yes, please feel free to stop trying to "help" me by telling me the wrong definition of modelling. I would welcome that.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

That's fine, so Slash does have (your definition of) modelling on his pedal board I guess. Just wanted to understand. And yes, please feel free to stop trying to "help" me by telling me the wrong definition of modelling. I would welcome that.

No worries, Webster's gave me the correct definition on modeling, something which you could not do, despite your claim of writing articles for Seymour Duncan.  Never mind, I could have copied and pasted a few links, claimed I wrote a few tech articles, and, well...there's no proof they're your articles, just your word for it, and, well...I'll just leave it at that.  ccasion14:  Really nothing more to say on the subject here.

So, I'm gonna go start a new thread now.  Feel free to visit and toot your horn about what you think you know, your "knowledge" is always welcome!  ccasion14:

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Flat-out accusing me of lying is going a bit far, so I'm going to have to respond to that. It's really quite a serious accusation and not a pleasant one at that.

There are many ways I can prove I wrote those articles. Not least you could email them and ask, as the "jumble jumble" user name is well known to them. I'm sure you won't though.

Also obviously I own all the guitars used in the demo videos and the videos are all shot in my house, so I could show photos of me with those guitars. Or you could simply look at this article, and take a quick look at the video at the bottom of the article. No need to watch it, you can see the guitar in question. Then check out this thread chronicling the build, and this one after it was done, which includes the changes to the pickups, and then in fact someone found the article when it was published. Of course, this all could just be a big plan to trick you that I planned in April last year.

Maybe this, my NAMM badge pickup email as a guest of SD (click to enlarge):

(reference numbers removed just in case) - of course, photoshop is very clever these days, so...

How about this: I can edit my articles after they are published. I could temporariliy make a minor punctuation change to one of the older ones. Would that be sufficient proof? Or might it be that I'm just a really really good hacker?

Or it could just be that I'm not in the habit of lying.

Oh and don't worry about your thread, I have no desire to help anyone who would personally insult me like that.

 

[Tony Ounsworth]

*applauds*

 

[Cagey]

Cagey, those parameters on the Axe FX II sound insane! Is it literally a case that you can bring the parameter up, play your guitar, and then twist a knob back and forth to see how much "cathode squish" you like? Or is it more like you load up a piece of software on your PC and design an amp using these deeper parameters?

Yes. And it's a per-amp thing, not necessarily a building block. Although, at the moment, that variable is only accessible from the front panel of the device. The external programming software (Axe Edit) isn't aware of that variable yet. Cliff (Cliff Chase is the genius behind this thing, and also owns Fractal Audio) tends to come up with new ideas, etch them in firmware, then release them in advance of the team that does the PC user interface programming. It's a little frustrating sometimes, but certainly not insurmountable. Especially since upgrades/improvements in the firmware/software are free of charge.

If you'd like to poke around a bit, you can see some of what's available to adjust by loading Axe Edit on your machine (currently needs Windows XP or higher or a Mac - Linux is coming). It's available here. It's fully functional as far as it goes, but there are features that haven't been fully implemented yet. A "work in progress", if you will. Still, interesting stuff.

As for the stdio.h thing. I bet the editor isn't written in C (maybe C++, but I still kinda doubt that). But I wouldn't be surprised at all if the software that the unit itself runs is C or C++. It's still by far the best language when every CPU cycle matters. Not sure what happens when you call printf() on an AFX though - maybe it plays a power chord through the output.

I don't know. But, I suspect it's the other way around. The AxeFx isn't a Wintel unit, it's a custom design based on a pair of TigerSHARC DSPs. Not sure how you program those little rascals, but it's a pretty safe bet it's not a very high-level language. I doubt its as rudimentary as Assembly, but some variation of C/C++ would make sense. The interface (Axe Edit), on the other hand, runs on PCs and Macs and operates in quasi-realtime, so it could be written in damn near anything.

Edit: I should read my own damn links. It says:

For tools, Fractal Audio leveraged ADI's CROSSCORE software and hardware development tools, including the HPPCI-ICE high-performance PCI-based in-circuit emulator and VisualDSP++ Integrated Development and Debugging Environment (IDDE).

The emulator provides state-of-the-art emulation for ADI's JTAG DSPs. It offers code download at speeds of up to 2.2 MB/second, allowing applications to be tested in a fraction of the time by gathering data samples 10 times faster than before. VisualDSP++ lets programmers develop and debug an application. The environment includes an easy to use assembler, which is based on an algebraic syntax, an archiver (librarian/library builder), a linker, a loader, a cycle-accurate instruction-level simulator, a C/C++ compiler, and a C/C++ runtime library that includes DSP and mathematical functions. "The VisualDSP++ tools and the emulator ease the development effort and the integrated environment enhances productivity," said Chase.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

That's the same way round I was suggesting!

 

[Cagey]

Hehe! I just edited the post, then realized the same thing.

Don't mind me; I'm an idiot.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Flat-out accusing me of lying is going a bit far, so I'm going to have to respond to that. It's really quite a serious accusation and not a pleasant one at that.

There are many ways I can prove I wrote those articles. Not least you could email them and ask, as the "jumble jumble" user name is well known to them. I'm sure you won't though.

No, I certainly wouldn't bother wasting my time, as it means nothing to me.

Also obviously I own all the guitars used in the demo videos and the videos are all shot in my house, so I could show photos of me with those guitars. Or you could simply look at this article, and take a quick look at the video at the bottom of the article. No need to watch it, you can see the guitar in question. Then check out this thread chronicling the build, and this one after it was done, which includes the changes to the pickups, and then in fact someone found the article when it was published. Of course, this all could just be a big plan to trick you that I planned in April last year.

Maybe this, my NAMM badge pickup email as a guest of SD (click to enlarge):

(reference numbers removed just in case) - of course, photoshop is very clever these days, so...

How about this: I can edit my articles after they are published. I could temporariliy make a minor punctuation change to one of the older ones. Would that be sufficient proof? Or might it be that I'm just a really really good hacker?

Or it could just be that I'm not in the habit of lying.

Oh and don't worry about your thread, I have no desire to help anyone who would personally insult me like that.

Congrats on your NAMM pass.  You and everyone else who wants to attend a NAMM show have access to getting one through various resources.  I could go to my local music store and obtain one if I wanted to, so...ya-hoo for you.

I didn't call you a liar, though given your penchant for tooting your own horn, I would hardly put it past you.  But hey, no biggie, I could have gotten all offended where you made comments to me, stopping just short of calling me an idiot and other derogatory remarks just because I don't agree with you.  What's good for the goose, bud.

As far as worrying about my thread, the threads I've started (which you've posted in...), you haven't lent any help to them anyway, other than to toot the horns of Kemper and AxeFX, which, of course, were not pertinent to any of the information I was seeking in the first place, so your presence certainly won't be missed!

If I knew "calling you a liar" was all it would take to keep you from invading my threads and hijacking them, I would have done it far sooner, but, whatever the case, while it may not be pretty, it's mission accomplished!  :hello2:

P.S.  It kinda sucks when your thread gets hijacked, doesn't it, but then again, you blew this one up on your own, again, just because I didn't agree with you.  Good job!  ccasion14:

 

[Tony Ounsworth]

Embarrassing.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

You didn't say "you are a liar", but you made a very strong hint that you didn't believe I'd written the articles. I assume you now believe me, having not taken up my offer of proof. Thanks.

 

[mayfly]

On my unit, there are some parameters that you can actually assign to an external expression pedal.  Then you can wah them all you want, whenever you want.

Imagine being able to tweak an internal amplifier parameter with an expression pedal!  It's pretty cool.

 

[Cagey]

If I knew "calling you a liar" was all it would take to keep you from invading my threads and hijacking them, I would have done it far sooner, but, whatever the case, while it may not be pretty, it's mission accomplished!  :hello2:

P.S.  It kinda sucks when your thread gets hijacked, doesn't it, but then again, you blew this one up on your own, again, just because I didn't agree with you.  Good job!  ccasion14:

It is as Mr. Ounsworth said: embarrassing. You've dug yourself into quite a hole here. Should hit China pretty soon. You're sounding like the goofy relative at Thanksgiving dinner who's managed to get snot-slingin' drunk and is completely unaware of his surroundings. You're past reason, argument and debate and well into flailing. Quit while you're behind, and cut your losses.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

You didn't say "you are a liar", but you made a very strong hint that you didn't believe I'd written the articles. I assume you now believe me, having not taken up my offer of proof. Thanks.

And on this day, nobody cares.  You didn't call me an idiot either, but you made a "strong hint" as to what you were insinuating...and all because I disagreed with your PERSONAL definition of what you *think* modeling is and isn't.  You didn't write the book on what modeling is or isn't.  You have your opinion, and I have mine.  Get used to it, not everyone is going to agree with you.  Stay out of my threads and I'll stay out of yours.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

On my unit, there are some parameters that you can actually assign to an external expression pedal.  Then you can wah them all you want, whenever you want.

Imagine being able to tweak an internal amplifier parameter with an expression pedal!  It's pretty cool.

That is awesome. Maybe you could do it with supply voltage, like a variac type thing a la EVH. Would love to hear what that would sound like.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

If I knew "calling you a liar" was all it would take to keep you from invading my threads and hijacking them, I would have done it far sooner, but, whatever the case, while it may not be pretty, it's mission accomplished!  :hello2:

P.S.  It kinda sucks when your thread gets hijacked, doesn't it, but then again, you blew this one up on your own, again, just because I didn't agree with you.  Good job!  ccasion14:

It is as Mr. Ounsworth said: embarrassing. You've dug yourself into quite a hole here. Should hit China pretty soon. You're sounding like the goofy relative at Thanksgiving dinner who's managed to get snot-slingin' drunk and is completely unaware of his surroundings. You're past reason, argument and debate and well into flailing. Quit while you're behind, and cut your losses.

I dug myself into nothing.  I didn't agree with his opinion and he didn't like it.  Nobody's flailing. As I stated in my last post, I'm done with him.  I'm far from behind.  I have my opinions and his opinions change nothing.  He started a thread and wanted everyone to agree with him.  He asked about "Real Amps vs. Fake Amps," then posted everything he already thought, answering his own questions.  Maybe you need to reread the entire conversation which went on.  He first accused me of being "partial" and not lending any pros and cons, yet I did that in my FIRST post on this subject.  He didn't like it, and then I had to consistently point these things out after he continuously called me a liar, and made every attempt he possibly could at discrediting my reasoning for why I liked one product over another, which is what he asked for in the first place.

Amongst my posts, you will find no such thing as me calling him names, and the only insults I made were answers to his own. 

So, after all this, my opinions on the subject remain the same.  I'll take real equipment over a $2,000 lunchbox full of someone else's effects any day, night, etc.  Regardless of how expensive a modeler is, it will NEVER sound 100% like an original.  While it may get close, that's where it ends.  They're fun to play with and that's where it ends for me.  He wanted personal opinions on them and that's what he got.  Simply put, he just wanted everyone to agree with him how great a Kemper or AxeFX was, and at the first sign somebody didn't agree, he jumped on that particular person, who in this case, was me.

None of this matters, as this thread is just one more glaring reason as to why I only take his opinions and/or suggestions with nothing more than a grain of salt.

Done here.

 

[Cagey]

On my unit, there are some parameters that you can actually assign to an external expression pedal.  Then you can wah them all you want, whenever you want.

Imagine being able to tweak an internal amplifier parameter with an expression pedal!  It's pretty cool.

That is awesome. Maybe you could do it with supply voltage, like a variac type thing a la EVH. Would love to hear what that would sound like.

You can. It's called the "sag" parameter. No, I'm not kidding. I think there's a "recovery" adjustment to go along with that.

I mentioned earlier that you could download and run the Axe Edit software independent of the Axe Fx if you were curious; I should have also included a link to the user manual. It's only a couple hundred fairly terse pages. There's also a wiki, which is often more helpful as it's less formal and includes more real-life examples.