Rack Gear?

[stubhead]

When you read Guitar Player or Guitar World magazine (or whatever) they always have these articles showing "Eric Johnson's Stage Rig!" and "How to Get Petrucci's Tone!" with pictures of wires and stompboxes.... then a few pages later there's an ad for - wires! And stompboxes! What they don't show is the backstage double-12 rack rig full of $25,000 worth of ultra high-end Lexicon PCM 42's and stuff. All you see is the wahwah and a fuzz.... and for some reason, you don't "get" Petrucci's tone.*
:sad1:

When you buy a little reverb or delay box, the engineers make a lot of decisions for you as to how the delays are folded into each other, how many repeats at what volume etc. And you get a couple of knobs to dick with. They sound good - really good, these days - but the Big Boys construct their own reverbs and delays with the primo toys, and when you have $25,000 to spare you can too! :hello2: It's all tax-deductible, assuming the nursing home gives you a cupcake or the shopping mall kicks out $20 for gas money. :toothy12:


*(If "tone is in the fingers", whatr them $25,000 worth of Eventides 'n Lexicons fer.....) :icon_tongue:

 

[Superlizard]

Do you guys like Metallica's tone, especially live??? How about John Petrucci??? Neal Schon???

These guys always use rack gear, even if it's not out front and on stage for you to see.

The only Metallica I like is their 1st 3 albums, and that's primarily for sentimental value... the tone ain't nothing to write about.
(personally, I lean more towards the Megadeth side; especially with Marty Friedman... always thought Hammett was a chump and wayyy over-rated as a player)

John Petrucci is a technical wiz, but never been a Dream Theater fan (too mechanical/computerish sounding) and his tone is just
like Vai, Satch and all those typical others who are highly technically proficient - overcompressed, flat and no dynamics (with one exception for me, Yngwie...
but he uses 50 watt non-master volume [heheh] Marshall heads).  Don't get me wrong, I have Vai & Satch albums (& G3 DVDs), but ain't my bag tone-wise.

Schon had decent tone (hit or miss)... emphasis on had... i.e. the early days of Journey (up to Frontiers perhaps).  Love his playing, however.

The other thing to remember is just because you see rack gear on stage (or backstage), doesn't automatically prove they use it in the studio (where tone is extremely important).

Here's a few of my ideas of really good tone from the pros:

Angus / Malcom Young - pure vintage Marshall balls
Eric Johnson - "500 lb. violin tone" from... vintage Marshalls (again)... as well as vintage Fender
Da 'Nuge (early) - old Fenders cranked
Ritchie Blackmore in DP/Rainbow - love that Strat "crang" thru... vintage Marshalls
Thin Lizzy - Fat & juicy... vintage Marshall tone
Jeff Beck (early) - vintage 50 watt Marshall tone (EJ sounds eerily similar tone-wise)
EVH (early) - yet again, vintage Marshall tone (technically slaved heads, but I ain't no EVH-tone hound like so many *still* are)

 

[Death by Uberschall]

John Petrucci's new rig.
[youtube=425,350]4yUUCRJGdko[/youtube]

His old rig!!
[youtube=425,350]O0N24rVHFgI[/youtube]

And the real reason we use rack gear!!!
[youtube=425,350]MefjovJJr-0[/youtube]

 

[Rouse]

I'm sorry, but I just had to post this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKMYeXkYcgs

 

[kboman]

I'm sorry, but I just had to post this:

"...pretty amazing..."

Those videos are great! Really excellent syncing with what he's doing in the clip too, pointing at etc.

 

[stubhead]

I have a 50-watt no-master Marshall, the Duane/Beck/Johnson/Malmsteen amp... it's got a great roar, but not real, real versatile. I like a different EQ for clean than overdriven - the clean needs to be flatter (more highs and lows, relatively) and the roar need to be more midrange-y. If I was ambitious enough I'd hook up two amps (or four like Santana, Johnson and all) but I just get by with one - none of my audience cares, they're just trying to see how drunk they can get on low-grade American bilgebeer. I love Petrucci's solo album, but there's something wrong with Dream Theatre - the more of them there are on a project, the worse it gets - some kind of divisional multiplication. They're all too smart or something.  :icon_scratch: I too own the requisite Vai and Satriani albums - they're the specific reason I don't like Floyd Roses. If guitarists that picky can only sound as good as that, there's gotta be a reason.

 

[GearBoxTy]

I have a Mesa Studio Pre amp that is my main man for guitar recording. Has been for years. Would love to have a small power amp to work with it and a smallish speaker box combo too. But money's tight and these sort of things are always last on the list to buy.

Also have some effects rack stuff, lo end budget stuff really, but hey it works and I can tweak some reasonable sounds out of it.

But yeah, I was wondering what happened to the rack rig craze?

I have about the same EXACT setup in a rack at my place.  Boogie Studio Pre-Amp, Kittyhawk MIDI Patch Bayette, Rocktron Hush and Compressor, and a Digitech DSP 128+ all controlled via the ADA MIDI footcontroller originally intended for the MP-1.  I've been without power amp and speaker cabs since about 1990 but still have that stuff.  I've been thinking the single rack space Carvin power amp and maybe a stereo 4x12 cab.  But, that's so far down on the GAS Wish List and it's so much easier to plug into an amp with just a few foot pedals.

Sad that people think tone sucked in racks, I always thought I had some of the coolest sounds when I'd program all my stuff.  The thing about the DSP 128+ was the algorithms often times have an EQ in the chain so there aren't too many limitations to sounds I could conjure.

 

[Superlizard]

Sad that people think tone sucked in racks, I always thought I had some of the coolest sounds when I'd program all my stuff.

Hey, I thought *my* tone kicked ass during my ADA MP-1 days (as well as my Master Volume Marshall 2205 & 2210 heads)... until a decade and a half later, when I discovered non-master volume Marshall heads and vintage Fenders.

And going back in time further, I thought my tone with my SS Crate 2X10 with built-in chorus and BOSS pedal board kicked ass... until a few years later when I got my ADA rack setup.  :icon_biggrin:

Tone is subjective as far as what one likes, but then again, not everyone gets the opportunity to play through the really good amps... so, what they think kicks ass might be, in reality, wayyy down the list in the *global/overall* "Kickass Amps Of All-Time Tone Chart".  Vintage Fenders & Marshalls (whether the real thing or clone) are definitely at the top of that chart - rack gear isn't... for a reason.

 

[Mor Paul]

I'd like some rack-mounted amps with different wirings. Bassman, twin reverb, plexi, etc... fed into an attenuator. Maybe have some effects mounted too, like delays and such...
Rack mounted seems like it could be more convenient than a ton of pedals and different separate amps. Just have rack units wired like the amps. Could be pretty big, though.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

This conversation came up iniated by my guitar player, who knows nothing of my online forum nerdishness.  Billy Gibbons was the subject, for us he is the unofficial Tone King, and his licks are attainable for the average player compared to Satch, Vai, Johnson, and the like.  There's genius in the simplicity.  All of these things necessary for tone that are "indisputable," he apparently doesn't read this forum and hasn't been schooled.  Rackmounted 12AX7 Marshall heads, Poly and Nitro - doesn't seem to matter, Crate, and .008 gauge strings.  Proof positive that gear helps, but that ain't where tone comes from.  You gotta have good paint and a good canvas, but it don't mean doo-doo if you can't paint, and sometimes you just have to know how to paint.   

 

[Death by Uberschall]

I can sum up most problems with rack systems and the sounds coming out of then, good or bad; USER INTERVENTION!!!!!  :doh:

Most rack systems that really sounded bad were the ones where the user didn't understand or know how to make it all work together for a good sound. Or just bought crappy gear to stick in it. You've got to be a "tweaker" or it just doesn't get there. And some of it just plainly comes from the person having a bad ear for tone. Years ago my old band had a rhythm guitar player who started putting a rack system together because I had mine. He was under the impression that the reason I sounded good and played well had to be the gear. He put together a smaller version of mine with some nice gear in it (Rocktron, etc.). He never really got a group of tones I or the rest of the band ever thought were great. So one day after practice when he had left the building I plugged his main guitar into his rack and started tweaking. In about 15 minutes I had some really cool sounds coming out of it. The rest of the band was loving it. Next practice he plugs up and hits a chord, looks at everybody and says, "who's been messing with me gear?" Well it only took about two practices before he dialed it back in to sounding like crap again.  :doh:

 

[mayfly]

not everyone gets the opportunity to play through the really good amps... so, what they think kicks ass might be, in reality, wayyy down the list in the *global/overall* "Kickass Amps Of All-Time Tone Chart".  Vintage Fenders & Marshalls (whether the real thing or clone) are definitely at the top of that chart - rack gear isn't... for a reason.

An image from Superlizard's studio  :icon_jokercolor:

 

[AndyG]

not everyone gets the opportunity to play through the really good amps... so, what they think kicks ass might be, in reality, wayyy down the list in the *global/overall* "Kickass Amps Of All-Time Tone Chart".  Vintage Fenders & Marshalls (whether the real thing or clone) are definitely at the top of that chart - rack gear isn't... for a reason.

An image from Superlizard's studio  :icon_jokercolor:

LOL

I guess that's how you get a real "t00b" sound!  :toothy10:

 

[Alfang]

This conversation came up iniated by my guitar player, who knows nothing of my online forum nerdishness.  Billy Gibbons was the subject, for us he is the unofficial Tone King, and his licks are attainable for the average player compared to Satch, Vai, Johnson, and the like.  There's genius in the simplicity.  All of these things necessary for tone that are "indisputable," he apparently doesn't read this forum and hasn't been schooled.  Rackmounted 12AX7 Marshall heads, Poly and Nitro - doesn't seem to matter, Crate, and .008 gauge strings.  Proof positive that gear helps, but that ain't where tone comes from.  You gotta have good paint and a good canvas, but it don't mean doo-doo if you can't paint, and sometimes you just have to know how to paint.   

Super Turbo Deluxe Custom Nailed it. I've been sayin the same thing for years, too much hype sometimes over the deails of the guitar, when most of your Tone comes from your pickups, stomp box's and amp

http://www.geocities.com/cfuehrer/ampsdiagram.htm  Check out David Gilmours signal chain[/color]

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Yeah, Gilmour has a small rig!!  :icon_jokercolor:

 

[GoDrex]

Mayfly, AndyG - - thank you.

 

[Superlizard]

An image from Superlizard's studio  :icon_jokercolor:

Hah!  Dude, you got the mic right, but you got the amp wrong... that there's a master volume Marshall...

 

[Superlizard]

not everyone gets the opportunity to play through the really good amps... so, what they think kicks ass might be, in reality, wayyy down the list in the *global/overall* "Kickass Amps Of All-Time Tone Chart".  Vintage Fenders & Marshalls (whether the real thing or clone) are definitely at the top of that chart - rack gear isn't... for a reason.

...and I still totally stand by this statement.

Imagine, if you will, some kid who gets his first modeling or rackmount amp... well hell, he's gonna think it's the bee's knee's, isn't he?

It's gonna be the best damn tone he's ever played through...

...at least until he plugs into something better... like say an original 100W Marshall plexi.  :laughing7:

Fact is, when talk about all-time awesome guitar tones comes up, good luck finding "rackmount" or "modeler" in there.  Anybody
who's serious about tone knows which amps are responsible for all those awesome recordings over the decades, and it's the
old stuff.  Not only that, their value goes up each day (take a look at e-bay)... for a reason.

Of course, some of you have experience with vintage t00b amps, and some of you own them, but prefer to drag your crappy-toned
modeling/rackmount amps to live gigs because, hey - why take a chance and have your valued vintage amps fry onstage, or worse,
get ripped off?  They're lighter in most cases as well.  And hell, most of the audience is drunk anyways, and what the hell do they
know about tone?  That's legitimate reasoning fo' having somewhat crappy tone.

But sorry - nobody's gonna sit here and tell me to my face (or anyone who's serious about their tone) that their shitty PCB-construction, over-compressed, totally-lacking-in-dynamics modeling/rackmount amp has more tone than an original 100w Marshall plexi, VOX AC30, or in my case, my blackface Deluxe or modded-to-60s spec JTM45RI.  Or that they sound "equivalent"...

Yeah, good f*cking luck trying to pass that BS off...  :icon_tongue:

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Hey SuperGizard,

I'll step in it. I'll bet you in a blind fold test, you couldn't tell a Plexi from a well set up POD......  :icon_jokercolor:

 

[mayfly]

Hey SuperGizard,

I'll step in it. I'll bet you in a blind fold test, you couldn't tell a Plexi from a well set up POD......  :icon_jokercolor:

As an owner of a couple of blackface fenders, and several AC30 and AC15 clones - as well as a vox tone lab - I'll see you and raise you  :icon_jokercolor:

Crap!  This means I have to make some recordings!  :doh: