Proof
- Thread starter Superlizard
- Start date
Justinginn
Hero Member
- Messages
- 631
If you're gonna get good at any type of music, you start with the beginning of the genre. Much as listening to... John Mayer for a crappy example (since we love talking about him so much... :icon_biggrin
might help you if he were actually good going back to the original founders of blues is gonna help a lot more, even if John Mayer (insert some other recent blues player) is cleaner/whatever the foundation of the genre is gonna be the best foundation for your music. That's why the likes of Hendrix and Page are always gonna be crucial no matter how they sounded compared to what's coming out now.
might help you if he were actually good going back to the original founders of blues is gonna help a lot more, even if John Mayer (insert some other recent blues player) is cleaner/whatever the foundation of the genre is gonna be the best foundation for your music. That's why the likes of Hendrix and Page are always gonna be crucial no matter how they sounded compared to what's coming out now.CrackedPepper
Hero Member
- Messages
- 956
stubhead said:
Your point is well taken. Of course most, if not all of us, don't really have any business criticizing anyone who has "made it". I still agree with every criticism that has been made about Page on this thread.
Death by Uberschall
Master Member
- Messages
- 4,162
Jimmy Paige the writer, producer & recording engineer - awesome.
Jimmy Paige the player - not so good.
Sorry to you guys and gals who idolize him, but that's just the way it really is.
Jimmy Paige the player - not so good.
Sorry to you guys and gals who idolize him, but that's just the way it really is.
CrackedPepper
Hero Member
- Messages
- 956
+1
Death by Uberschall
Master Member
- Messages
- 4,162
nathana said:
Trust me, there's no way LZ would have been as big as they were without him, no doubt about that, he fit well into the package.
But if you lined him up with other great players in a head cuttin' contest of players, well let's just say he might need a transfusion at the end of the night. :icon_jokercolor:
whitebison66
Hero Member
- Messages
- 777
Oh heck, it isn't fair of me to let people I agree with take all the heat.
What interests me about this thread is the way a lot of us feel that we can't or shouldn't separate Page's different aspects, i.e writing songs and playing them live. I personally feel it is okay, and in Page's case, necessary.
The playing in that video doesn't suffer from a lack of technicality. It suffers from a lack of ability/skill and an overabundance of Papaver somniferum. It's a lot like that horrid video of Michael Schenker we've probably all seen. If not, search for "Schenker drunk" on YouTube. They ought to make them both anti-drugs/booze commercials.
I'm just glad others feel the way I do about Page (but I wasn't brave enough to say it). Peerless producer, arranger, and songwriter. For which he will very deservedly be remembered for decades if not centuries. He wrote the soundtrack to my adolescence, and his music remains as vital today as it was when it was new.
As a live player, though, it's just not happening.
Am I the only one who seems to hear a distinct change in guitar tone in the Song Remains the Same version of "Rock and Roll"'s solo? About 2:09, the tone changes significantly, and the playing significantly improves. I don't think it's just a Treble Boost. I know, everybody fixes live albums. But the issue is what he's playing before the change. Eek. I've tried quite a few times to sit through that movie, and I just can't.
In real life, his live shortcomings will, for 99% of his fans, be either unnoticed or not considered and thus have virtually no impact on his image. And he deserves that image. I do think that the solo in Stairway to Heaven is probably the best ever. But I can't sit through the live version. That said, I'll listen to his albums for the rest of my life and longer (depends on how longs the batteries in the iPod in my casket last).
Well, all the albums except the Song Remains the Same soundtrack.
But it isn't just Led Zeppelin. Steely Dan and Boston are two examples of bands that just couldn't make it live, although their challenges were more technical than narcotic, I think. I preferred Van Hagar live to Van Halen because Sammy was a much better live singer. Not as entertaining, but without Dave TV, you got a lot more music, and that's what I was there for. I think there's a darn good reason they never released a Roth-era live album.
Insisting on some inseparable relationship between facets (i.e. you can't say he's a bad guitarist because of what a great songwriter etc) leads down the road that says just because someone is good live, you can't say they're a bad songwriter. No one plays Yngwie Malmsteen songs at their prom. Not even in Sweden. And thank God for that.
I think we, as guitar players, have a much greater interest and investment in this contradiction. I doubt other people do. In the broad scheme of things, even if some Guitar Tribunal declared him a bad live player in a very real and legally binding sense (that's a Holy Grail reference, btw), the rest of the world would say 'So what?' Do you think they even care that the 'Stairway' solo was played with a Telecaster?
What interests me about this thread is the way a lot of us feel that we can't or shouldn't separate Page's different aspects, i.e writing songs and playing them live. I personally feel it is okay, and in Page's case, necessary.
The playing in that video doesn't suffer from a lack of technicality. It suffers from a lack of ability/skill and an overabundance of Papaver somniferum. It's a lot like that horrid video of Michael Schenker we've probably all seen. If not, search for "Schenker drunk" on YouTube. They ought to make them both anti-drugs/booze commercials.
I'm just glad others feel the way I do about Page (but I wasn't brave enough to say it). Peerless producer, arranger, and songwriter. For which he will very deservedly be remembered for decades if not centuries. He wrote the soundtrack to my adolescence, and his music remains as vital today as it was when it was new.
As a live player, though, it's just not happening.
Am I the only one who seems to hear a distinct change in guitar tone in the Song Remains the Same version of "Rock and Roll"'s solo? About 2:09, the tone changes significantly, and the playing significantly improves. I don't think it's just a Treble Boost. I know, everybody fixes live albums. But the issue is what he's playing before the change. Eek. I've tried quite a few times to sit through that movie, and I just can't.
In real life, his live shortcomings will, for 99% of his fans, be either unnoticed or not considered and thus have virtually no impact on his image. And he deserves that image. I do think that the solo in Stairway to Heaven is probably the best ever. But I can't sit through the live version. That said, I'll listen to his albums for the rest of my life and longer (depends on how longs the batteries in the iPod in my casket last).
Well, all the albums except the Song Remains the Same soundtrack.
But it isn't just Led Zeppelin. Steely Dan and Boston are two examples of bands that just couldn't make it live, although their challenges were more technical than narcotic, I think. I preferred Van Hagar live to Van Halen because Sammy was a much better live singer. Not as entertaining, but without Dave TV, you got a lot more music, and that's what I was there for. I think there's a darn good reason they never released a Roth-era live album.
Insisting on some inseparable relationship between facets (i.e. you can't say he's a bad guitarist because of what a great songwriter etc) leads down the road that says just because someone is good live, you can't say they're a bad songwriter. No one plays Yngwie Malmsteen songs at their prom. Not even in Sweden. And thank God for that.
I think we, as guitar players, have a much greater interest and investment in this contradiction. I doubt other people do. In the broad scheme of things, even if some Guitar Tribunal declared him a bad live player in a very real and legally binding sense (that's a Holy Grail reference, btw), the rest of the world would say 'So what?' Do you think they even care that the 'Stairway' solo was played with a Telecaster?
There's some necessary ageism and/or ignorance of history going here, too. Look, Jimmy Page was their package - he designed it planned it, marketed it at a time when "marketing" bands was considered the province of fat guys with pinky rings. He specifically created drama in all their music, what he called "light and shade". He and Hendrix were hugely responsible for advances in recording techniques and equipment, just as the Grateful Dead's ridiculous sound systems were the laboratory for most of the modern live-music sound reproduction advancements.
It would've been a lot easier to replace JPJ or Plant and still have "Zeppelin" - there's some stories about that. Led Zeppelin (and the Dead) were the first people to flat out refuse to put out singles anymore, they wanted to sell albums only. This was a radical concept back them. You weren't there in 1969, but here's what was on the radio: The Grass Roots, Three Dog Night, The Jackson 5, Tommy James and the Shondells, ONE song by Jefferson Airplane, THREE Rolling Stones songs... FM radio was the outcast home of college radio hippies, and it cause a revolution. It's completely unlike what anyone under 50 might think of as "FM Radio" - they played whole albums, they played commercial-free three-hour blocks of a single artist, there were tons of live simulcast concerts from the best bands of the era. Since FM radio created such a stir, the corporations moved in and ruined it, of course. In that context, Zeppelin invented much of what followed. Listening to the radio at work in the 1980's it was clear that only the Beatles had as much influence on the later bands. You do know that without Zeppelin (and Black Sabbath) there's no heavy metal, right?
Bands today may be trivial, genrified and replaceable, but back then they were inventing the genres.
:hello2:
TonyFlyingSquirrel
Master Member
- Messages
- 4,525
Jimmy Page = great songwriter, sloppy player.
That sounded like those parody youtube video's of the guy mocking Petrucci & Malmsteen. :icon_scratch:
That sounded like those parody youtube video's of the guy mocking Petrucci & Malmsteen. :icon_scratch:
Superlizard
Hero Member
- Messages
- 2,514
Let's not forget:
Jimmy Page = infinite mojo
Jimmy Page = infinite mojo
Death by Uberschall
Master Member
- Messages
- 4,162
Did I miss something??? :icon_scratch:
O
OzziePete
Guest
My take on Jimmy Page has changed over the years as more info about the who, what, why where and how of his career comes out.
As a Producer, Session Player, Songwriter etc. he is very much at the top of the tree. End of.
Live, he - like the rest of the Zepplin monolith - has had problems getting the right level of enthusiasm going. Once the 'mojo', 'enthusiasm', or whatever you want to call it, is there, then man move over as they could bulldoze you otherwise!
Like a lot of acts/performers through the 60s and 70s, they had to contend with a range of issues that impeded their performance to their audiences. Sub standard on stage sound, PA, electrical wiring in the house, acoustics of the venue, political interferrence - you name it, they faced it first and then had to work around these issues or attempt to solve them.
It might also had been that Page, at times, has gone on stage not as well prepared for a live performance as he should have been. I'm guessing that some of those You Tube clips from one-off performances were done with minimal notice and using gear that had been in storage for a while and maybe not properly checked out if they were in top condition. Things like tubes can go off and sound half dead even though they still work, and it could make it hard work to get some life out of your rig if that's the case. Let alone if you had only had one week to get ready for a performance when you had been happily sitting at home, enjoying life and doing your own thing....and definitely not playing guitar for 2- 3 hours a day.
While he has enough studio work in his portfolio to suggest he is definitely a good player (by the standards of the time he recorded those classics), on stage & live might not work best for him.
As a Producer, Session Player, Songwriter etc. he is very much at the top of the tree. End of.
Live, he - like the rest of the Zepplin monolith - has had problems getting the right level of enthusiasm going. Once the 'mojo', 'enthusiasm', or whatever you want to call it, is there, then man move over as they could bulldoze you otherwise!
Like a lot of acts/performers through the 60s and 70s, they had to contend with a range of issues that impeded their performance to their audiences. Sub standard on stage sound, PA, electrical wiring in the house, acoustics of the venue, political interferrence - you name it, they faced it first and then had to work around these issues or attempt to solve them.
It might also had been that Page, at times, has gone on stage not as well prepared for a live performance as he should have been. I'm guessing that some of those You Tube clips from one-off performances were done with minimal notice and using gear that had been in storage for a while and maybe not properly checked out if they were in top condition. Things like tubes can go off and sound half dead even though they still work, and it could make it hard work to get some life out of your rig if that's the case. Let alone if you had only had one week to get ready for a performance when you had been happily sitting at home, enjoying life and doing your own thing....and definitely not playing guitar for 2- 3 hours a day.
While he has enough studio work in his portfolio to suggest he is definitely a good player (by the standards of the time he recorded those classics), on stage & live might not work best for him.
Return of Guitlouie
Senior Member
- Messages
- 359
If the audiences watching Zep back in the day were half as gone on half as many drugs as Pagey, it probably sounded awesome.
Superbeast520
Hero Member
- Messages
- 617
Thats the beauty of "The Blues" you can beg, borrow and steal and its Cool!!! as a matter of fact its a tip of the ole hat, and considered respect for the original song writers or senior players style.
I love Blues and Blues based Rock, I find you can insert a blues lick into a piece succesfully far more often than a classical or shred type lick.
I have nothing against any style as I love all kinds of Music and respect anyone giving it their all, which is why Led Zeppelin has the reputation they do....they pushed the envelope alot, and its inevitable that your gonna fall on your face every now and then when you do that.
I can only imagine there were some unbelievably awesome and unreal jamms that never saw a recorder or even an audience when these guys got together....I will always hold the Zepp in the highest regard as they succesfully touched upon so many styles and had so many to die for moments in the history of music and the road, that one can only be in awe or jealous. :headbang:
I love Blues and Blues based Rock, I find you can insert a blues lick into a piece succesfully far more often than a classical or shred type lick.
I have nothing against any style as I love all kinds of Music and respect anyone giving it their all, which is why Led Zeppelin has the reputation they do....they pushed the envelope alot, and its inevitable that your gonna fall on your face every now and then when you do that.
I can only imagine there were some unbelievably awesome and unreal jamms that never saw a recorder or even an audience when these guys got together....I will always hold the Zepp in the highest regard as they succesfully touched upon so many styles and had so many to die for moments in the history of music and the road, that one can only be in awe or jealous. :headbang:
mayfly
Epic Member
- Messages
- 8,997
About 25 years ago I read an article on Alex Lifeson in Guitar Player magazine. The interviewer was asking why live he did every solo note for note as it was on the record (this was very unusual at the time). Here's what I remember about his response:
"I got fed up with going to see guitarists in famous bands that I really admired and looked up to not playing the solo as it was on the record. Seeing them live was always a big disappointment. It was like "that was my favorite solo of all time! The guy's a bum!"
Since Rush started out as a bit of a Led Zep clone, I speculate that he's talking about Page :glasses10:
"I got fed up with going to see guitarists in famous bands that I really admired and looked up to not playing the solo as it was on the record. Seeing them live was always a big disappointment. It was like "that was my favorite solo of all time! The guy's a bum!"
Since Rush started out as a bit of a Led Zep clone, I speculate that he's talking about Page :glasses10:
Similar threads
