Piezo Pickups for Chambered Body?

[SeattleScotty]

Hi Everyone,

I have been loving the Mooncaster I just finished building, and it is so resonant I had the thought of installing a piezo system in it. I searched and found a previous thread talking about piezos for solid bodies and specifically the graphtek/LR Baggs bridge systems.

Are there any options *aside* from a bridge system? I like the hipshot Tune-O-Matic I have installed, so I would rather not have to replace the bridge if possible. :sad:  :help:

Are there any piezo options that don't rely on a specific bridge? I understand it probably wouldn't sound nearly as good, but was curious about options. 

Also, does anyone have any experience with that Graphtek Ghost piezo system? If I have to go with the bridge route that is probably the one I would go with. How do you like it?  ???


...Or maybe I'm better off just lugging an acoustic around along with my Moonie?  :icon_scratch: :icon_tongue:

 

[Lbpesq]

RMC makes piezo replacement saddles for your Tune-O-Matic bridge.  I have RMC piezos on both of my guitars that are wired to control a Roland synth.  They do that far better than the Roland PU and also add an acoustic-like option, so they are not just for synth control. I have been VERY happy with them.

Bill, tgo

 

[SeattleScotty]

I looked at their website though I didn't notice those replacement saddles. Nothing has pricing info, do you know how much those saddles run? I imagine there is a bit of work to get those connected to the electronics in the back of the guitar.

 

[Lbpesq]

Sorry, I have no info regarding pricing or installation.  Mine were installed during an extensive modification of my Fernandes MH-110 Masterhand by Gary Brawer about 10-15 years ago.  My other set came stock on a Wechter prototype.  I would suggest giving RMC a call.  They are in Berkeley, CA, so they should be easy to reach.

Bill, tgo

 

[TBurst Std]

I have heard good things on RMC.

Sorry can't help you. My piezo equipped guitar was from the factory (Godin). It uses the LR Baggs on a TOM bridge.
I will say this, make sure you account for a separate preamp for the piezo system. Not just vol, but also tone.

 

[stratamania]

Probably go via an authorised installer in your area.

https://www.rmcpickup.com/authorized_installers.htm

 

[Sadie-f]

My only absolute no-go was the fishman powerbridge. I was looking at it for the pure simplicity, and them my local shop said they can be shite for reliability and inferior sound, found similar reviews online.

I can't say about the RMC, the ghost was easy to install (gotta be careful getting the 6 leads and a pickup cable through the standard routing). But hey, I'm an engineer and comfortable fettling electronics.

The views I could find on ghost/RMC said sounds are ~= for both, which makes sense. Piezo sensors are pretty simple mechanically.

Fwiw, as expected coming from graphtec, the ghost saddles are very low friction, that said, the RMC saddles look well made.

 

[SeattleScotty]

Thanks all, sounds like they might be the only other real option out there. It's definitely going to require some thought. I'm sure there's room in the control cavity for a battery and some stuff, but I don't know if it's got enough or what. I know I would have to put in another pot or two and probably a switch, so that could make it look messy quickly. I wonder what the smallest footprint switches and knobs you could use so it would look like you just added a whole additional set of knobs.

Alternatively, I have 2x volume and 1x tone, I could probably switch to a master volume and then a stacked knob for tone/volume control of the piezos... Hmmm, that could work. I would just need a switch that would look intrusive which could probably be done pretty easily.  Just thinking out loud here.

 

[Lbpesq]

You may want to consider a pan pot that allows you to pan between the piezo and magnetic pickups.    I get some real nice tones blending the two.

Bill, tgo

 

[SeattleScotty]

Ooooh yes, I can imagine that really gives you a lot of different options that you wouldn't normally have. I would love to hear some examples of that in action. Do you route it to a different (acoustic?) amp or do you combine the signals?

 

[Lbpesq]

I generally use the combined signal into one amp, though, with this guitar, I can use my Pritchard Sword of Satori which has a true acoustic amp setting and an extra tweeter for acoustic.  I also can hook it up with a midi cable to a Roland GR33 guitar synth which has a guitar signal output.

Bill, tgo

 

[TBurst Std]

Some thoughts to ponder:
The system I have allows a common cable for mags and piezo with a blend knob ALSO the ability to output the mag and piezo separately.

I run into an Axe FX, so can easily make  2 signal chains from 2 inputs. 

Using the pan option, your signal is combined coming out of the guitar, so using 2 signal chains afterwards doesn’t make sense.

 

[TBurst Std]

Also, if you go with a pan pot option, make sure you have an independent tone control system for the piezo before the signals are combined.

 

[Sadie-f]

Answering this in your thread

I've also put a set of Ghost piezo-acoustic saddles in the bridge, I'm super looking forward to hearing how those sound when I can get their preamp wired up

Have it wired-up yet? How do they sound?

I wired it up today, so far it's still largely jumpered so as to not commit more than necessary to soldered connections until I could hear it.

I like it a lot and if you don't mind a 3 pot control, I think it's hard to beat being able to dial the magnet and piezo sides independently from 0 - 11, rather than a fixed blending curve of two pots in one mechanism.

As for tone, it's acoustic, there's no soundboard, cavity, etc so there are limits on what's possible. Among my other pickup tones, the ghost sits somewhere between my neck & middle, however when I select N+M on the switch, it's a combination of 2 mag PU sounds that's still not the same as the piezos.

For the moment it's hooked up with a lot of test leads so I could hear it before committing to all the solder joints (the Ghost system forces you to run the mags thru their board - not the preamp, it's just another switch electrically).

Once I've got it wired up proper, I think the thing I'm looking forward to most will be the possibilities of blending the acoustic with the mag bridge PU.

One note, I don't know about the other makers' options here, the Ghost offers a "summing board" which is to say connecting 6 piezos in parallel to one input wire in the preamp. I just built my own and having looked at the signals from individual strings, and now hearing the output, I feel the higher pitch strings are not keeping up with the bass end.

So I gave myself room to build a small resistor network to better match the response across 6 strings, I'll play it a bit more first, but I think I'll like it better with that tweak.

It could be the preamps are factoring this with built-in eq, but I think that's the wrong place unless you have a "real" eq, which I don't see cramming into 1.5 sq in of circuit board.

Aside from whatever features other pickup makes offer, I doubt there's a lot of difference in sound. A piezo is a pretty standard piece of electronics, so aside from poor manufacture or bad preamp design, I imagine they deliver similar performance. That said, I've seen multiple warnings about quality problems with the fishman powerbridge.

Ok, wall o' text done, good luck with yours!

 

[Sadie-f]

...Or maybe I'm better off just lugging an acoustic around along with my Moonie?  :icon_scratch: :icon_tongue:

You may see this anyway and probably you've already gone ahead or decided not to with piezos, anyway here's a note from a mod I just finished on mine.

https://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=33645.0