Not finishing a body & neck

[Doughboy]

For my next build, I want to have a mahogany body & neck that are unfinished, so the wood will breath, & hopefully produce a truer more organic tone.... I hope.

I was thinking of using either tru oil, warwick wax or maybe tung oil.

Does anyone have any tips of what the best method would be to preserve the top from getting dirty & damaged due to sweat & wear?

 

[bagman67]

Dead wood doesn't breathe.  The effect a thin layer of lacquer or polyurethane or a polymerizing oil such as Tru-Oil or boiled linseed will have on the tone of the guitar is unlikely to be audible to the human ear.


That said:  If the aesthetics of an oiled or waxed body appeal to you, knock yourself out.  Tru-Oil is more durable than penetrating oils such as tung oil, and when built up, can be polished to a high gloss sheen if that's your thing.  That said - you can also get a great matte look out of two coats of satin wipe-on poly, and it will be super thin.

 

[GilgaFrank]

Dead wood doesn't breathe.  The effect a thin layer of lacquer or polyurethane or a polymerizing oil such as Tru-Oil or boiled linseed will have on the tone of the guitar is unlikely to be audible to the human ear.

I'm going to get this printed on a t-shirt.

 

[Doughboy]

Dead wood doesn't breathe.  The effect a thin layer of lacquer or polyurethane or a polymerizing oil such as Tru-Oil or boiled linseed will have on the tone of the guitar is unlikely to be audible to the human ear.

The reason I want to try is that I put together my last Warmoth build BEFORE I had it coated with a thin layer of poly. It sounded more alive with more chirpy highs.

Once I had it finished & put it back together again with the exact same hardware, it didn't have that extra chirp, quack & openness as before.

The only thing different was the addition of a finish.

 

[bagman67]

Well, it's also possible that what you encountered was any one of or a combination of the following phenomena.  Bear in mind none if them is intended to be an insult or accusation, and they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.


1.  Confirmation bias (you encountered something that you interpreted in a way that confirmed your expectations, whether they were truly, objectively met or not). 


2.  You might have heated the pots or capacitor(s) to an extent that their behavior changed when you soldered them the second time.


3.  You could, conceivably, have switched the pots, and thus got different behavior in the second instance.


4.  Something else in your signal chain changed that you were unaware of or forgot about or did not take into account.


5.  Some fifth thing that isn't in my list of possibilities that wiser minds than mine might be able to come up with.


6.  Maybe your poly coat really did dampen the guitar's behavior in the top end.  Hell, I dunno.

 

[bagman67]

One possible example of item 4 (change in signal path) might be substituting in a patch cable with higher capacitance,which would take some of the treble freq's down a bit.

 

[Doughboy]

One possible example of item 4 (change in signal path) might be substituting in a patch cable with higher capacitance,which would take some of the treble freq's down a bit.

I plugged directly into the amp. Same cord, no pedals, all dials the same.

The guitar definitely doesn't sound the same with a poly coat than when totally unfinished.

 

[treyhaislip]

I would recommend tru-oil as the first choice followed by tung oil.

I prefer a thin nitro paint job on my guitars; however, I've played many poly coated ones that sounded great too. But I prefer the way a nitro or non-painted guitar responds...could be a mental thing I concede.

I think many things go into a guitar's tone...its a combination of many factors.

Some people argue that tonewood doesn't make a difference. I know from experience that a SD JB sounds "off" to me in every Basswood guitar I've tried it in but sounds just right in every Alder guitar I've used, regardless of the fretboard used on both guitars (several guitars being almost identical.) Some say I don't know what I'm talking about because none of the guitars I've used were 100% identical...which you can never truly get anything 100% identical for such a test.

My only recommendation is that you keep your guitar well oiled if you are going raw/unfinished. Best of luck!

 

[pabloman]

Tru-oiled mahogany is a beautiful thing!

 

[drewfx]

One possible example of item 4 (change in signal path) might be substituting in a patch cable with higher capacitance,which would take some of the treble freq's down a bit.

I plugged directly into the amp. Same cord, no pedals, all dials the same.

The guitar definitely doesn't sound the same with a poly coat than when totally unfinished.

1. If you move your head a little bit, high frequency response changes.

2. The human brain doesn't have accurate memory of sound (among other things). We actually start to lose our ability to discern small differences if the gap between the samples is greater than something like 200 ms (.2 seconds).

3. If the volume level between 2 tests is different by a fraction of a dB, a simple change in volume can be mistaken for something else.

4. Tests that are not carefully controlled (so that the only thing that changes is the thing being tested) and double blind are simply not reliable. Of course if you don't care about something called "reality", you can just ignore this one. But if you do, well you can't.

Given that I've never seen any coherent technical explanation for how the finish on a solid body guitar is supposed to significantly change the electromagnetic relationship between the PU's and the strings, and given that your testing wasn't even remotely reliable, a likely explanation is that your perception is deceiving you. You might be actually hearing a difference, but neither you nor anyone else has any way of knowing whether it was real or perceived. You might "definitely" believe you heard a difference, but (unfortunately) without a reliable test procedure you can't claim you know anything the real world at all.

 

[drewfx]

Some say I don't know what I'm talking about because none of the guitars I've used were 100% identical...which you can never truly get anything 100% identical for such a test.

The fact that "you can never truly get anything 100% identical for such a test" means that you can never get reliable knowledge.

It does not mean that, since reliable knowledge is difficult or impossible to get, your beliefs are therefore somehow more reliable. They still aren't reliable.

IOW, you are in fact admitting that you "don't know what you're talking about" and then saying it's impossible to really know. Which is pretty much correct.

And admitting we don't actually know some things is not a bad thing. IMO, it's actually kind of helpful.

 

[treyhaislip]

Some say I don't know what I'm talking about because none of the guitars I've used were 100% identical...which you can never truly get anything 100% identical for such a test.

The fact that "you can never truly get anything 100% identical for such a test" means that you can never get reliable knowledge.

It does not mean that, since reliable knowledge is difficult or impossible to get, your beliefs are therefore somehow more reliable. They still aren't reliable.

IOW, you are in fact admitting that you "don't know what you're talking about" and then saying it's impossible to really know. Which is pretty much correct.

And admitting we don't actually know some things is not a bad thing. IMO, it's actually kind of helpful.

I'm an accountant, not an electrician, scientist, researcher, etc.

But what I do know is every Basswood guitar I've played with a JB sounded off.

It started off like this, several years ago I had a MIJ Jackson SL3 that had a JB in the bridge and Hotrails in the neck and mid. I loved that guitar, incredible tone machine! Unfortunately a music pastor at the time broke the neck. Being a neck through meant I couldn't just replace it (had I known the tech I do know I would have had it repaired by him.) I decided to "recreate" this guitar...

I learned a TON from doing so...bolt-on does not equal neck thru, 250k pots don't always work for humbuckers but sometimes do, not every JB plus Hot Rails combo will sound the same, Basswood is a tricky wood for me to find a pickup combo that works (Screamin Demon in the bridge plus a Liquifire in the neck is what works for me,) Basswood is  a much softer wood than Alder, etc.

My conclusion was a JB doesn't sound good in Basswood to my ears, a JB sounds best in Alder to me, a Liquifire sounds good in Basswood and Alder, and I should not be allowed to do any finish work on a guitar

 

[Strat Avenger]

Dead wood doesn't breathe. A hard finish will produce more highs than a soft finish or no finish at all. When wood "resonates", it absorbs high frequencies and vibration, which reduces sustain. A hard finish will absorb less high frequencies. We are talking about electric guitars here, not acoustic, yet people insist on trying to apply the same physics and tonal properties to the electric as the acoustic. Pickups are slightly microphonic, so things like the bridge type, scale length, and density of the wood (especially the neck) will affect the tone.
Fretboard material has NO effect (I don't care what anyone says), and fret material (like stainless steel) has such a minuscule effect, it's a non-issue.
The pickups themselves will have the greatest effect on tone.

If you like the appearance of a thin, transparent finish, definitely do one.

 

[Strat Avenger]

Some say I don't know what I'm talking about because none of the guitars I've used were 100% identical...which you can never truly get anything 100% identical for such a test.

The fact that "you can never truly get anything 100% identical for such a test" means that you can never get reliable knowledge.

It does not mean that, since reliable knowledge is difficult or impossible to get, your beliefs are therefore somehow more reliable. They still aren't reliable.

IOW, you are in fact admitting that you "don't know what you're talking about" and then saying it's impossible to really know. Which is pretty much correct.

And admitting we don't actually know some things is not a bad thing. IMO, it's actually kind of helpful.

I'm an accountant, not an electrician, scientist, researcher, etc.

But what I do know is every Basswood guitar I've played with a JB sounded off.

It started off like this, several years ago I had a MIJ Jackson SL3 that had a JB in the bridge and Hotrails in the neck and mid. I loved that guitar, incredible tone machine! Unfortunately a music pastor at the time broke the neck. Being a neck through meant I couldn't just replace it (had I known the tech I do know I would have had it repaired by him.) I decided to "recreate" this guitar...

I learned a TON from doing so...bolt-on does not equal neck thru, 250k pots don't always work for humbuckers but sometimes do, not every JB plus Hot Rails combo will sound the same, Basswood is a tricky wood for me to find a pickup combo that works (Screamin Demon in the bridge plus a Liquifire in the neck is what works for me,) Basswood is  a much softer wood than Alder, etc.

My conclusion was a JB doesn't sound good in Basswood to my ears, a JB sounds best in Alder to me, a Liquifire sounds good in Basswood and Alder, and I should not be allowed to do any finish work on a guitar

While I've never put a JB in a basswood guitar, I have put the Screamin' Demon in one and it seems to fit tonally really well.
I also have a JB in an 25-1/2" scale alder guitar with maple neck & a Floyd, and a JB in a 24-3/4" scale mahogany guitar (body and neck) with a TOM/STP.  The Alder guitar sounds much more clear & bright, while the mahogany guitar sounds less bright and almost a little muddy.

Now I have no Idea which factor is causing the tonal difference, or if all of them are. But like you, I hear a difference between the two guitars with the same pickup.

I can pretty much guarantee that the finish on each guitar is not one of the contributing factors.

 

[Timmsie95]

I have a question related to this, On one of my builds, I plan on using tru oil to finish it, and I'm dying the wood with leather dye (extremely vibrant colours with fiebing's!) and I was wondering, if I do a few mist coats of zinnsser shellac before the tru oil, will the tru oil still soak in?

 

[bagman67]

I did a wash coat of shellac on this baby before applying Tru-oil, and the Tru-oil built up fine:

I shot this so as to display the color with minimal glare off the shiny surface, but I did get a halfway decent semi-gloss sheen with the TO.  If I'd kept going I could have built up enough to then wet sand and polish to a glossy sheen, but that wasn't my goal here.

 

[treyhaislip]

While I've never put a JB in a basswood guitar, I have put the Screamin' Demon in one and it seems to fit tonally really well.
I also have a JB in an 25-1/2" scale alder guitar with maple neck & a Floyd, and a JB in a 24-3/4" scale mahogany guitar (body and neck) with a TOM/STP.  The Alder guitar sounds much more clear & bright, while the mahogany guitar sounds less bright and almost a little muddy.

Now I have no Idea which factor is causing the tonal difference, or if all of them are. But like you, I hear a difference between the two guitars with the same pickup.

I can pretty much guarantee that the finish on each guitar is not one of the contributing factors.

The Screamin Demon in Basswood is a great fit IMO, glad I'm not the only one who thinks so!  :headbang:

The Seymour Duncan forum has a lot of debates about the JB in Mahogany...some love it but it seems like most there don't like it, muddy is a word used a lot for JB+Mahogany.

Trust your ears, if it sounds good then go with it–to me a JB in Basswood just don't mix and no amount of scientific evidence that tonewoods don't matter doesn't change the fact that a JB in Basswood sounds off to me...I can't explain why just that it doesn't.

 

[treyhaislip]

I did a wash coat of shellac on this baby before applying Tru-oil, and the Tru-oil built up fine:

I shot this so as to display the color with minimal glare off the shiny surface, but I did get a halfway decent semi-gloss sheen with the TO.  If I'd kept going I could have built up enough to then wet sand and polish to a glossy sheen, but that wasn't my goal here.

Gorgeous guitar man! And good info to know, I didn't think the shellac would cause an issue but never tried so I wasn't going to say.

 

[GilgaFrank]

...what I do know is every Basswood guitar I've played with a JB sounded off.

That's really strange, one of the best-sounding guitars I ever owned was a 1986 E-series MIJ Squier with a Duncan Custom in the bridge.

In my experience, every guitar with a JB humbucker sounds off. They do one thing and one thing only, high-gain distorted wig-out. Clean them up and they turn into the dullest, most lifeless pickup imaginable.

 

[treyhaislip]

...what I do know is every Basswood guitar I've played with a JB sounded off.

That's really strange, one of the best-sounding guitars I ever owned was a 1986 E-series MIJ Squier with a Duncan Custom in the bridge.

In my experience, every guitar with a JB humbucker sounds off. They do one thing and one thing only, high-gain distorted wig-out. Clean them up and they turn into the dullest, most lifeless pickup imaginable.

Ha! I prefer the JB in a Jackson SL3–Alder neck thru with a Flamed Maple top and Rosewood board.

The JB use to be my main pickup in several guitars then I went to the Screamin Demon and now am really diggin the Pearly Gates.

And those MIJ Squiers were much better guitars than the price tag!