iamdavidmorris
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Awesome. Now I'm really glad I didn't waste $32.82 on conductive shielding paint.
Humbucker Cover Issues
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Cagey
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iamdavidmorris said:
Yeah, companies sell that stuff (and the various metal foils) to guitar/bass players because they demand it, not because it does anything. They're in business to make money and hopefully keep their customers happy and repetitious, not to advance any kind of morality play. How right or correct a thing is up to you to decide. They're just materials suppliers.
Don't get me wrong; shielding is not only a Good Thing, it's a Necessary Thing. But, it's important that you do it right. Otherwise, you're just working and spending money pointlessly.
iamdavidmorris
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Got it. So...just to be clear...while the hot line must be short and generally should be shielded, the ground line can run from my guitar into my kitchen, through a conductive metal dog food bowl (that's simultaneously connected to conductive wire that coils around power lines) then back to the guitar, with several ground loops in between created by my alligator clip test wires, just so I can permanently incorporate them into the guitar. Is that correct?
iamdavidmorris
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New potential problem. When I ordered my strat pickguard from Warmoth, I wanted the Tom DeLonge volume position, but then I thought, "PSHT! For $15 I can drill that hole myself." I planned pretty carefully, measured twice and drilled, using the correct brad-point drill bit. Now that it's in there, I'm just a little worried about it. It's fine on the top side. The knob is almost rubbing the switch tip, but not quite. On the underside, however, the push-pull pot is coming dangerously close to touching a lead from the blade switch. I'm considering ordering an import style blade switch, so all the tips will be on one side, which I can just turn away from the pot. But I'm wondering if it would be just as well if I covered the end of the pot with a little electrical tape. Incidentally, why don't we use electrical tape more often? I know it's not pretty, but it seems like a great way to cover bare wires, ensure everything stays in place, and nothing accidentally touches anything it shouldn't.
TonyFlyingSquirrel
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Got pics yet of covered P-Rail?
iamdavidmorris
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Sure, but they're not very exciting. The covers don't have holes, so the pickups are indistinguishable from normal humbuckers. I'd be glad to upload something when I get home today.
Firebird211
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It's a little late for this piece of information, but I found the Lace Hemi's are a chrome covered P-rail "like" pickup, and just as versatile.
iamdavidmorris
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Yeah, but no P90's. And I'm a P90 guy. Incidentally, I found another product that would pair well with those Lace Hemis. Have you seen these?BlueFirebird said:
http://www.guitarelectronics.com/product/PMT-HCP/Humbucker-Control-Pot-w-Coil-Filters-For-Guitar-Bass.html
Here's a picture of the P-Rails with covers mounted in a pickguard:
Firebird211
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I'm not sure if it has a true P-90 in it at all, but when comparing the Hemi to a P-rail I found that the P-rail had identical character, but the Hemi is just more vintage sounding (that could be the cover too). I swear that I can hear a distinct single coil, and a fat p-90 pickup inside of it. Lace is very vauge about providing that kind of information, so I'm not 100% sure. I designed and wired this circuit to give the coil select/series/parallel options for them. http://www.flickr.com/photos/54969454@N08/5127951104/ When I did the coil selecting I found the arrangement of pickups, single/P-90 was reverse from the typical P-rail. You are pretty far along with your mod, though, and I am liking how it is turning out. :icon_thumright:
iamdavidmorris
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Having issues.
I've been testing step-by-step. However, when it came to wiring the push-pulls, I had to just do it. The terminals are just too small for alligator clips (at least the ones I have). At this point, my coil tapping seems to be working fine. The issue I'm running into is that if I connect my neck to the hot output line, I get the bridge pickup too. The reverse is true as well. If I connect to the bridge pickup, I get both.
This makes no sense to me. I tested those little switches on the push-pulls. If you connect to the three terminals on the left, the three on the right are unaffected, and vice versa. I visually checked, and the only place I'm getting a connection between the left and the right is through a common ground. The coil tapping is working fine. And, obviously, the neck and bridge pickups come together in the pots, which are also wired. Here's my wiring diagram again, if it's helpful:
http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=2_prails_1v_1t_tspp
The pots and mini-switched connected to them work just as the ones in the diagram. I know. I checked. I also ensured the ground is working as a ground should by touching the bridge ground wire to the hot line and shorting out the sound. Tone pot doesn't seem to do anything either. The sound of the tuning fork doesn't change as I turn it down.
So...I messed up, right? Undo all connections to the push-pull pots and start over on that part? That would likely require ordering more, as those little holes are hard to reuse once they've gotten solder in them. I'd rather not do it, but I will if I must.
Thanks.
I've been testing step-by-step. However, when it came to wiring the push-pulls, I had to just do it. The terminals are just too small for alligator clips (at least the ones I have). At this point, my coil tapping seems to be working fine. The issue I'm running into is that if I connect my neck to the hot output line, I get the bridge pickup too. The reverse is true as well. If I connect to the bridge pickup, I get both.
This makes no sense to me. I tested those little switches on the push-pulls. If you connect to the three terminals on the left, the three on the right are unaffected, and vice versa. I visually checked, and the only place I'm getting a connection between the left and the right is through a common ground. The coil tapping is working fine. And, obviously, the neck and bridge pickups come together in the pots, which are also wired. Here's my wiring diagram again, if it's helpful:
http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=2_prails_1v_1t_tspp
The pots and mini-switched connected to them work just as the ones in the diagram. I know. I checked. I also ensured the ground is working as a ground should by touching the bridge ground wire to the hot line and shorting out the sound. Tone pot doesn't seem to do anything either. The sound of the tuning fork doesn't change as I turn it down.
So...I messed up, right? Undo all connections to the push-pull pots and start over on that part? That would likely require ordering more, as those little holes are hard to reuse once they've gotten solder in them. I'd rather not do it, but I will if I must.
Thanks.
Cagey
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It's difficult to know how something works simply by looking at a wiring diagram. You need to know how the switches operate, so you need a schematic.
As for switches (or anything else) that have their terminals clogged with solder, you need a solder sucker...
Basically, it's an aluminum tube with a spring-loaded piston inside. You cock the thing to arm it, then heat up the solder joint you want to desolder, place the point of the sucker on the joint and push the release button. The piston fires backward, creating a vacuum internally that pulls the solder off the joint. Works like a charm. Beats the hell out of desoldering braid, which should be renamed "parts and PC board destroyer" to more accurately describe its function. Anyway, they're $4 at the link above. Buy two, and give one to a friend to gain brownie points.
As for switches (or anything else) that have their terminals clogged with solder, you need a solder sucker...
Basically, it's an aluminum tube with a spring-loaded piston inside. You cock the thing to arm it, then heat up the solder joint you want to desolder, place the point of the sucker on the joint and push the release button. The piston fires backward, creating a vacuum internally that pulls the solder off the joint. Works like a charm. Beats the hell out of desoldering braid, which should be renamed "parts and PC board destroyer" to more accurately describe its function. Anyway, they're $4 at the link above. Buy two, and give one to a friend to gain brownie points.
Firebird211
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The Seymour Duncan Diagram is good, but it sounds as if you may of wired it differently. You will not get continuity between the push-pull switch rails as they are isolated from eachother, but the contacts move identically. The idea behind the P-rail wiring diagram is to get the bridge and the neck to do the same coil select at the same time, and yet they can be used individually or together. The upper two are connected when the knob is in, then the lower two are connected as the knob is out. (mind the orientation of the switch with knob facing down). You may want to draw up what you have done up to this point or take a picture to get a good verification of whether it is correct or not. You can desolder the push-pull terminals pretty easily with desolder braid, but just don't heat things up too long. If your coil-tapping is right then the problem shouldn't be the push pulls, but it would be the selector switch, and how it arranges the pups with the rest of the circuit. The tone control may either be hard to verify with what you have working, or it just may not be wired right with everything else.
iamdavidmorris
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Cagey,
I know (parts schematics vs. wiring diagrams). But I played around with every single part to see how it worked, and they all work just like the switches in the diagram. I know this because I printed the diagram four times and traced the flow of electricity in each of the four push-pull possibilities. From my own testing, I can tell you the schematic is something like this:
When the pot shaft is pulled up, the switch connects the middle terminal on the left with the top terminal on the left, and the middle terminal on the right with the top terminal on the right. No other connections are made. When then pot shaft is pushed down, the switch connects the middle terminal on the left with the bottom terminal on the left, and the middle terminal on the right with the bottom terminal on the right. No other connections are made. The three terminals for the potentiometer itself work according to the traditional method, where the terminals on the left and right are connected, but inhibited by a resistor that sends a variable output to the middle terminal, which effectively serves as an output for the pot. The left and right terminals are essentially interchangeable, except that depending on which one you send to ground and which you use as input, the knob will turn different directions as it varies the output.
BlueFirebird,
That switch isn't wired yet. I have the pots wired, the output jack, and a kill switch wired, with three unconnected wires (neck output, bridge output, and hot wire to the jack) I can connect with test leads.
.....
Sounds like I need a solder sucker...and more patience.
Thanks, guys.
(EDIT): I'd post a picture (and may later, for kicks), but there are something like twenty-two wires connecting these two small pots, not counting the grounded shields for the shielded cables, and the pots are separated by less than two inches. To me at least, it looks like a tightly interconnected mess of wires. It's hard to see what's going into any one terminal without taking the pots off the pickguard and bending everything into strange positions, which invariably breaks one of the shielded wires I bought from a company we all love, though I have come to detest their shielded wire.
I know (parts schematics vs. wiring diagrams). But I played around with every single part to see how it worked, and they all work just like the switches in the diagram. I know this because I printed the diagram four times and traced the flow of electricity in each of the four push-pull possibilities. From my own testing, I can tell you the schematic is something like this:
When the pot shaft is pulled up, the switch connects the middle terminal on the left with the top terminal on the left, and the middle terminal on the right with the top terminal on the right. No other connections are made. When then pot shaft is pushed down, the switch connects the middle terminal on the left with the bottom terminal on the left, and the middle terminal on the right with the bottom terminal on the right. No other connections are made. The three terminals for the potentiometer itself work according to the traditional method, where the terminals on the left and right are connected, but inhibited by a resistor that sends a variable output to the middle terminal, which effectively serves as an output for the pot. The left and right terminals are essentially interchangeable, except that depending on which one you send to ground and which you use as input, the knob will turn different directions as it varies the output.
BlueFirebird,
That switch isn't wired yet. I have the pots wired, the output jack, and a kill switch wired, with three unconnected wires (neck output, bridge output, and hot wire to the jack) I can connect with test leads.
.....
Sounds like I need a solder sucker...and more patience.
Thanks, guys.
(EDIT): I'd post a picture (and may later, for kicks), but there are something like twenty-two wires connecting these two small pots, not counting the grounded shields for the shielded cables, and the pots are separated by less than two inches. To me at least, it looks like a tightly interconnected mess of wires. It's hard to see what's going into any one terminal without taking the pots off the pickguard and bending everything into strange positions, which invariably breaks one of the shielded wires I bought from a company we all love, though I have come to detest their shielded wire.
Firebird211
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Oh, now I see what you are doing. The only thing that would make that happen would be if you accidentally crossed the jumpers from each push-pull. On the wiring diagram they are the black lines, and they should stick to their corresponding sides. You would get funky combinations of the bridge and neck otherwise. I hope that helps a little.
Steve_Karl
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Cagey said:
... has often been the side of my head.
iamdavidmorris
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Time to uncover my nakedness. This isn't pretty, I know. It's amateurish. But I can't figure out why it doesn't work. Are these pictures even helpful??
Ugh...please be nice. Thanks.
Ugh...please be nice. Thanks.
Cagey
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That's quite the clusterfuk you've got going there <grin>
I wouldn't expect that to survive being stuffed back in the control cavity without opening or shorting something.
Plug it into the amp while it's all laid out, and see what happens. if you don't get any output, try taking a small screwdriver or piece of wire that you're holding the conducting part of, make sure all the pots are set to mid-travel, and touch some of the areas where signal should show up. You should get some hum out of the deal, since you're a big antenna and you're behaving like a signal generator. If you don't get any hum, the signal line may be grounded or open where it shouldn't be. Start right from the hot (tip) side of the output jack, and move backward from there. The object of the exercise is to find where signal injection doesn't make it out to the amp.
I wouldn't expect that to survive being stuffed back in the control cavity without opening or shorting something.
Plug it into the amp while it's all laid out, and see what happens. if you don't get any output, try taking a small screwdriver or piece of wire that you're holding the conducting part of, make sure all the pots are set to mid-travel, and touch some of the areas where signal should show up. You should get some hum out of the deal, since you're a big antenna and you're behaving like a signal generator. If you don't get any hum, the signal line may be grounded or open where it shouldn't be. Start right from the hot (tip) side of the output jack, and move backward from there. The object of the exercise is to find where signal injection doesn't make it out to the amp.
Firebird211
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It is impossible to tell what is what from the pics, unfortunately. It may be easier to poke around, and check as everything is now, but I prefer to keep everything on the pickguard. It amazes me how intimidating wiring can look as a pile of components and wires compared to them laid out neatly in place. Cagey is right about the certainty of wires shorting or breaking when you put it all together. How many times can you really bend a wire back and forth until it breaks? The stress on the wires will break some right after or shortly after you put it all together, and that's going to pess you off. By all means try to work with what you have and trace through the path like Cagey said. I noticed the push-pull jumpers are going directly to the other coresponding side. The switches are also facing eachother, so for example, the right rail connections for the neck on one switch should be on the left side rail on the other switch. If not, then they are mixed up...not to beat a dead horse (It's a little hard to tell from the pics anyways which pup is going where). That opens you up to an easy mistake to make, since on the Duncan diagram the pickups stick to the same side of the switch respectively. A little perspective flip up can happen easily, but if it is right...that's not the problem. If you don't believe me face your index finger and thumb from each hand towards each other, then face them toward yourself (corresponding connections are no longer on the same side). BTW Are you having the same problem as you expained before now that everything is soldered?
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