C
Cederick
Guest
Cagey said:
Well I'm not afraid to take a challenge but sometimes I just wanna get going
Well I'm not afraid to take a challenge but sometimes I just wanna get going
mayfly
Epic Member
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- 9,082
Speaking seriously for a moment here (rare for me I know...), to get anyone to do anything you need to show them that it's in their best interests to do it, and you need to do it in a way that is respectful and doesn't annoy them. First, you have to understand what the person in question (warmoth in this case) actually considers to be their best interest. Once you have that, then you need to demonstrate that your suggestion is in that best interest in a way that does not piss them off. Then you'll get some traction.
Regarding warmoth, I suspect that their best interest lies in the balance between running a smooth plant that makes quality stuff and booking lots orders to sell that stuff. Given this if you can demonstrate that there is big market, you might get them interested. You can't just say stuff like "I bet there are a lot of guys who would like that option". You need to actually get a bunch of guys together who would like that option. Once that's done, you need to get that group to commit. Once you have that, you need to present it in a friendly and non-antagonistic manner. Saying stuff like "I bet it would be easy - why don't they just do it?" or "we'll just buy them out and force them to do it" will just piss them off and they'll shut you down no matter how good the idea is.
Now the case study. A few years ago I really wanted a Fender Starcaster. But at the same time, I didn't want a fender starcaster - if you've ever played one you'll realize why. Instead I thought it would be a great idea to have a warmoth starcaster. Now that would be cool! But - it's a rare model that no one had even heard of. Why would Warmoth even consider it? So, what I did was start a little campaign to generate support for the idea right here on this forum. I kept at it, showing that there were dozens of people who where interested. I kept it nice, civil, respectful, and fun. Once I had that, I approached them - and they actually took it seriously and considered it! But then they said "well, if we do any semi-hollow body, we'd actually probably do a Gibson 335 or something". Fair enough I thought - there's probably a much bigger market for that than the strange and rare Starcaster. But then came the kicker - Gibson showed up and told them they were not allowed to do the gibson shapes anymore. I can just imagine the sleepless nights and long hours of work it took them to dodge that bullet! But, because I and others had built up support for the Starcaster, it was actually on their radar. And lo and behold you can now go and buy one. All of the above made building Starcasters in Warmth's best interest. So they did it.
That's really how you affect change.
P.S. Here's the original starcaster thread: http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=15825.0
Regarding warmoth, I suspect that their best interest lies in the balance between running a smooth plant that makes quality stuff and booking lots orders to sell that stuff. Given this if you can demonstrate that there is big market, you might get them interested. You can't just say stuff like "I bet there are a lot of guys who would like that option". You need to actually get a bunch of guys together who would like that option. Once that's done, you need to get that group to commit. Once you have that, you need to present it in a friendly and non-antagonistic manner. Saying stuff like "I bet it would be easy - why don't they just do it?" or "we'll just buy them out and force them to do it" will just piss them off and they'll shut you down no matter how good the idea is.
Now the case study. A few years ago I really wanted a Fender Starcaster. But at the same time, I didn't want a fender starcaster - if you've ever played one you'll realize why
. Instead I thought it would be a great idea to have a warmoth starcaster. Now that would be cool! But - it's a rare model that no one had even heard of. Why would Warmoth even consider it? So, what I did was start a little campaign to generate support for the idea right here on this forum. I kept at it, showing that there were dozens of people who where interested. I kept it nice, civil, respectful, and fun. Once I had that, I approached them - and they actually took it seriously and considered it! But then they said "well, if we do any semi-hollow body, we'd actually probably do a Gibson 335 or something". Fair enough I thought - there's probably a much bigger market for that than the strange and rare Starcaster. But then came the kicker - Gibson showed up and told them they were not allowed to do the gibson shapes anymore. I can just imagine the sleepless nights and long hours of work it took them to dodge that bullet! But, because I and others had built up support for the Starcaster, it was actually on their radar. And lo and behold you can now go and buy one. All of the above made building Starcasters in Warmth's best interest. So they did it.That's really how you affect change.
P.S. Here's the original starcaster thread: http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=15825.0
TonyFlyingSquirrel
Master Member
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- 4,559
Agreed Mayfly.
Same thing with the 7 string, and let me preface this with the statement that I am a huge 7 string proponent.
I thought they'd sell a million if they'd open up their options more, then I started working there.
I awaiting the millions of emails inquiring about 7 strings, with topics all across the board, ie; body shapes, hardware options, scale lengths, etc...
For the 51 weeks that I worked there, I could count all of the inquiries related to the 7 string in anyway, on both hands. Less than 10 inquiries in one year! That was for the whole company, not just me as one single sales rep. Reason that I know this? All of the other sales reps knew my love of the 7 string, and routed these inquiries my way, so I handled all of them for that year.
Just because we are emotionally attached to a product/feature/option, doesn't mean that it is viable for this particular manufacturer, their individual business model, their client base, etc... Supply and Demand. It always comes back to that. Just as I mentioned about the Gecko model earlier. When Takaeuchi went belly up some years ago, the Gecko had to be re-designed to accommodate another bridge by another manufacturer. It was a costly undertaking, which involved programmers doing their thing on the computer, using up a CNC machine to make a prototype (which takes that machine out fo the normal production cycle = opportunity cost) to verify specs work in an actual end user situation, then multiply that by close to 10 times before you feel you can sign off on it. It all adds up to a significant amount of wages, compensation insurance, health insurance, materials, offset production, prototypes that will never be sold to an end user, etc.... It's expensive, and can take many years to recuperate any of that operational cost back.
There's a reason why folks look at Excel spreadsheets with sales figures all across their product line to determine stronger selling months/years in order to project ahead for production. If it doesn't sell, and therefore profit, there's no point in a business producing it.
Same thing with the 7 string, and let me preface this with the statement that I am a huge 7 string proponent.
I thought they'd sell a million if they'd open up their options more, then I started working there.
I awaiting the millions of emails inquiring about 7 strings, with topics all across the board, ie; body shapes, hardware options, scale lengths, etc...
For the 51 weeks that I worked there, I could count all of the inquiries related to the 7 string in anyway, on both hands. Less than 10 inquiries in one year! That was for the whole company, not just me as one single sales rep. Reason that I know this? All of the other sales reps knew my love of the 7 string, and routed these inquiries my way, so I handled all of them for that year.
Just because we are emotionally attached to a product/feature/option, doesn't mean that it is viable for this particular manufacturer, their individual business model, their client base, etc... Supply and Demand. It always comes back to that. Just as I mentioned about the Gecko model earlier. When Takaeuchi went belly up some years ago, the Gecko had to be re-designed to accommodate another bridge by another manufacturer. It was a costly undertaking, which involved programmers doing their thing on the computer, using up a CNC machine to make a prototype (which takes that machine out fo the normal production cycle = opportunity cost) to verify specs work in an actual end user situation, then multiply that by close to 10 times before you feel you can sign off on it. It all adds up to a significant amount of wages, compensation insurance, health insurance, materials, offset production, prototypes that will never be sold to an end user, etc.... It's expensive, and can take many years to recuperate any of that operational cost back.
There's a reason why folks look at Excel spreadsheets with sales figures all across their product line to determine stronger selling months/years in order to project ahead for production. If it doesn't sell, and therefore profit, there's no point in a business producing it.
stratamania
Mythical Status
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- 12,019
Well said guys. Politeness will always win out.
C
Cederick
Guest
I mailed "one of the other big 3 parts suppliers" yesterday and got a reply today that "The only difference is the mounting holes? Yeah sure, we can do that"
1 - 0 to "M****kraft" vs Warmoth :toothy12: at least talking about flush mount. I don't think they will do a larger recess rout even if asked nicely.
My mail to them was no much different in "politeness" than when I mailed Warmoth about it, or even ***CG.
In reply to the two lengthy messages, they are very interesting and cool stories, especially that with the Starcaster. :glasses10:
1 - 0 to "M****kraft" vs Warmoth :toothy12: at least talking about flush mount. I don't think they will do a larger recess rout even if asked nicely.
My mail to them was no much different in "politeness" than when I mailed Warmoth about it, or even ***CG.
In reply to the two lengthy messages, they are very interesting and cool stories, especially that with the Starcaster. :glasses10:
stratamania
Mythical Status
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Politeness isn't in reference to your e mails Cederick.
It's just a general comment to no one in particular that the approach in the longer posts may be more likely to get a response.
I guess what one supplier can do will differ to another. It probably depends on unit costs and various logistics, size of operation etc.
It's just a general comment to no one in particular that the approach in the longer posts may be more likely to get a response.
I guess what one supplier can do will differ to another. It probably depends on unit costs and various logistics, size of operation etc.
C
Cederick
Guest
Haha ok I misunderstood :icon_thumright:
Anyway, I'm probably going with Warmoth despite that. I tend to stray away from my ideal guitar concept and I haven't thought about it for a couple of days, ONLY focusing on the fact I want a Gotoh Floyd:
What I want is a "semi-recess". I want it to be in the same height as a properly setup recessed floyd, but the rout should be so shallow that it rests on the wood and can dive-only. It can be a fraction deeper so there's no risk of having it too high, and then I will adjust the action with shims, or just buy taller saddles. :glasses10:
Apart from having the saddles in the same height as a recessed floyd, I also don't want a neck angle.
Anyway, I'm probably going with Warmoth despite that. I tend to stray away from my ideal guitar concept and I haven't thought about it for a couple of days, ONLY focusing on the fact I want a Gotoh Floyd:
What I want is a "semi-recess". I want it to be in the same height as a properly setup recessed floyd, but the rout should be so shallow that it rests on the wood and can dive-only. It can be a fraction deeper so there's no risk of having it too high, and then I will adjust the action with shims, or just buy taller saddles. :glasses10:
Apart from having the saddles in the same height as a recessed floyd, I also don't want a neck angle.
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