Hitting the limits of my Tonelab

[TBurst Std]

Could be made to sound good at low volume? Like "average TV" volume? 

Sure if you run thorugh clean power and FRFR. Keep in mind though that the humar ear does tend to perceive louder as better.
The tone you get is not a function of how hard you are driving a power amp (as in a real amp).
Now if you run this thing through a tube power amp and guitar cab, all bets are off.

 

[mayfly]

Update - had a rehearsal with my first set of tweaked patches.  Results were mixed.

Touch response was still not there with the 'clean' patches.  and they were getting lost in the mix.  More work needs to be done here.

Distortion and soloing patches worked well - that trainwreck model really shines.  Was wishing it had more gain - but that's an easy fix with this unit - the amp models have 12db of front end gain that you can turn on.  If that's not good, there are dozens of pedals that I can stick out front.  I feel that I can sort this easily.

I've been working on the clean patches and have dramatically improved the touch response by backing off on the master and increasing the front end gain.  It's getting better, but more work needs to be done.

I'm realizing that if you really start to know this thing, you can probably sell your services as a consultant to top bands!  It's a pretty complicated box and there are many ways to achieve a result.

 

[mayfly]

Folks,

Started recording with the unit.  Clean patches are just that little bit better. I found that you can change the tonestack topology in your amp - to any topology of any modeled amp in the box!  So you can have an AC30 with the tone stack from a fender twin, for example.  Learning this I spent quite a bit of time trying different tonestacks - turns out that I like 'active' the best!  I guess I don't want the tonestack to be coloring my sound.

With this in place, the clean sounds are better.  I like the way they break up when I play harder.  I have not A/Bd it in awhile, but the feel is good under the pick.

I've also discovered the 'expander'.  This is what you need for stereo recordings with delay!  I used to record two tracks - right and left.  With this I just record one track straight down the middle!  Pretty cool.

Summary - more improvements, more tone, more fun.

 

[TBurst Std]

Folks,

Started recording with the unit.  Clean patches are just that little bit better. I found that you can change the tonestack topology in your amp - to any topology of any modeled amp in the box!  So you can have an AC30 with the tone stack from a fender twin, for example.  Learning this I spent quite a bit of time trying different tonestacks - turns out that I like 'active' the best!  I guess I don't want the tonestack to be coloring my sound.

With this in place, the clean sounds are better.  I like the way they break up when I play harder.  I have not A/Bd it in awhile, but the feel is good under the pick.

I've also discovered the 'expander'.  This is what you need for stereo recordings with delay!  I used to record two tracks - right and left.  With this I just record one track straight down the middle!  Pretty cool.

Summary - more improvements, more tone, more fun.

I told you it was a journey.

 

[simple]

I find myself continually checking this thread for updates. Mayfly do you have a verdict on this unit?

 

[mayfly]

I find myself continually checking this thread for updates. Mayfly do you have a verdict on this unit?

In the middle of recording two songs at the moment.  I'll put a faders-up mix up somewhere when the tracking is done.

You'll be able to judge for yourself 

 

[simple]

But you can tell us how it "felt". Half the battle with digital guitar products/modelers is whether we can live with what touch sensitivity factor.

 

[Cagey]

But you can tell us how it "felt".

Umm.. I feel right, Greg. I feel right.​

 

[mayfly]

Here's links to the two songs that we just finished tracking.  All guitars were tracked with the AxeFX.  Actually, all guitars and the bass are warmoth as well.

I'm especially happy with the solo in "Morning in the Burned House".  We will likely re-track the violin.

http://www.cornflowerbluemusic.com/Second_Album/assets/RunDownTheRails.mp3
http://www.cornflowerbluemusic.com/Second_Album/assets/Morning%20In%20the%20Burned%20House.mp3

How did it feel?  The feel is pretty good at the moment - but it took me a long time to get the box tweaked.

 

[stubhead]

Is that a Voxy patch? It sounds really good. Did you use the volume control on your guitar, or faders?

 

[mayfly]

Thanks man!  All guitars are variations of the AC15 model - with a bunch of other stuff around them:

AC15 -> 2x12 cab with blues -> er, I forget what mic (but not a 57) -> Parametric EQ with lower mid boost and top end cutoff -> delay -> delay enhancer

The rhythm patches don't have the delay on, and have less gain on the amp.  There are about a bazillion other tweaks (e.g. 'air' on the speaker cabs - how far away the mic is) and each tweak contributes a tiny bit.  But like anything else, the best place to start is with a good amp into a good cab, then use EQ to deal with what you like and don't like.  However, because of the extreme flexibility of the unit, it takes forever to figure out what does what.

Honestly, if you are not the patient sort, do NOT get this box!  :icon_jokercolor:

 

[Cagey]

Honestly, if you are not the patient sort, do NOT get this box!  :icon_jokercolor:

My next youngest brother has been avoiding it for exactly that reason. Everybody says it romps and stomps and does everything it claims to, but it's not something you can just hook up and go to town with.

His idea is to take that technology, since it's supposed to be so perfect as far as reproducing tube amps, and build it into a standard amp configuration where you just have your typical controls. That would get you light weight, consistency, predictability and long life, along with great sound and no dependence on tubes and all their inherent difficulties. Imagine a 25lb. JCM800 head with no problems, ever, outside of catastrophic failures. Something as reliable as a clock radio, but sounds like Robin Trower/Jimi Hendrix and has the same controls on it. It would be a waste in some ways, since the electronics and software needed could do tons more stuff, but what if you don't want all that? You just want to be able to tweak your volume/bass/mid/treb/reverb control at whim without a degree in computer science and a $1000 foot pedal?

 

[mayfly]

ok folks,

After spending a few weeks with the thing, here's the honest skinny.  Note that I have not yet gigged with it (that will happen Jan 22), but it does have a couple of rehearsals and several recordings under the belt.

The good news

1 - Tone.  Short answer - it's got the tone.  oh yea, it's got the tone.  However there are usual caveats:  Don't run it into a guitar amp or it will sound like crap.  It's made to be run into a PA, and the better the PA the better it sounds.  It is currently killing my Tonelab, and it's better than my Mayfly amps.  BTW  - the sound that I use is an AC15 type sound.  Very hard to get right, but this thing is so close it's not worth talking about differences. 
2 - Feel.  it took me awhile, but I've got the feel there.  The 'clean' sounds were the hardest.  I like a on-the-edge clean tone on the AC15 patch.  That is, play lightly and it's clean and bright; whack it hard and it dirties up and gets darker.  I also like to hold a power chord and play a clean line on top.  The rig does it.  The lead sounds were fairly easy to dial.  The harmonics, pinches and squeezes respond the way you expect them do.  Even bender pulls have that 'turn the treble up for a bit while it pulls' sound.  Yep, the feel is there.
3 - flexibility.  Ahem.  The most flexible rig around.  a gazillion presets (actually, it's 3 banks of 128), and the petalboard switches between them with ease.  The pedalboard is about as programmable as anything, allowing you to switch patches, or to turn effects on/off on a single patch pedalboard-style.  Right now my thing is to have two different amps running at the same time.  A very cool way to get realy cool tones.  Finally, there is a way to enter the impulse response for a custom cabinet.  I have yet to do this, but I'm close to doing it with my favorite cab.  I can't imagine requiring more flexibility.
4 - usability.  Two separate inputs, two separate outputs, one with XLR outs, can accept any MIDI pedalboard, can accept a wide variety of expression pedals and external footswitches, Phantom power on the MIDI all make it really easy to setup and run.  It's a pro box and it shows.
5 - Patch switching.  It's seamless - even more so when you have the delay hold over turned on.  the sound does not jump, have a dropout, or get strange when you hit that lead patch.  This is something that the tonelab really was crappy at - there was a tiny delay when switching patches.  Not so with the AxeFX.
6 - Quality.  I've had it apart and it's a well built unit.  Well beyond consumer grade PC boards and component choices.  I am a bit concerned about the impact fan used on the DSP - these typically only have about a 5 year life.  It's easy to replace, but I don't think there is a fan failure indicator.  Having said all this, my unit did have a loose screw inside it left over from final assembly.  Not great.  However, I have not reported this to the factory, so shame on me.  I'll send out that email after this.

Now on to the bad news:

1 - ease of use.  There is no dancing around this - the box is hard to use.  You have to have a lot of time, not be in a hurry, take lots of notes, and be willing to start from scratch several times.  You also have to have a very good idea about what you are looking for.  Just twisting knobs until it sounds right will NOT cut it with this unit.  You need technical chops, and patience.  Lots and lots of patience.  The manuals are really great and there is a good support group on-line, and the PC editor really helps with the UI, but the bottom line is that it's a super complicated unit.  It's hard to use and that's that.
2 - er, there really is not any other bad news.  I guess price, but it's really no more than a really good tube amp. 

The bottom line.
If you are really serious about tones, want to run through the PA, play live with a variety of sounds, the unit will work very very well for you.  You won't need anything else.  Same for recording.  The recorded sounds are very fine and the noise floor is through the floor.  Very high quality sounds.  If you are not recording, or playing live, or if you are happy with your current rig - then I would not recommend it, mostly because of price and ease of use issues.  However if you're serious, have the time to tweak it and find yourself on stage often,  then get it.  Just get it.

allow me to repeat that:

Just


    Get


      it

            !

Yours,

Mayfly

 

[Cagey]

Thanks for the review.

I'm curious about what you're calling an "impact fan" on the DSP. I've never heard of such a thing, which, not to brag, but would be unusual. Is that a brand name or something?

The fans I'm usually concerned about are the little 40mm units they put on some chips like the PIOs on PC mobos, which have the life expectancy of a fruitfly, not 5 years. In fact, most OEM fans have fairly short life expectancies. When we build computers around here, we always replace all the case fans with Noctuas or Papst units for that very reason. It's easier to do at build time than a year later when everything is all assembled. We even void the warranties on power supplies just to do that, because the chances of the supply failing are pretty small relative to the chances of fan failure, and better fans are always less noisy so you get an immediate benefit.

 

[mayfly]

Thanks for the review.

I'm curious about what you're calling an "impact fan" on the DSP. I've never heard of such a thing, which, not to brag, but would be unusual. Is that a brand name or something?

It's not a brand name; rather a small 2" fan bolted to the top of the heatsink blowing down into it.  In my part of the world (Ottawa high tech) such a thing is called an "impact fan" - as it has direct impact on the device requiring cooling; as opposed to a "chassis fan" or "case fan" which cools the entire chassis.

We occasionally use them in new designs when we are desperate.  The usual mean time to failure of the ones that we use are about 5 years, which is embarrassingly fast for the industry i'm in (TV equipment).  based on your comments, I'm guessing that there are cheaper ones out there that die faster.  I've made a mental note to upgrade the one in my unit ASAP.

 

[Cagey]

Thanks for the review.

I'm curious about what you're calling an "impact fan" on the DSP. I've never heard of such a thing, which, not to brag, but would be unusual. Is that a brand name or something?

It's not a brand name; rather a small 2" fan bolted to the top of the heatsink blowing down into it.  In my part of the world (Ottawa high tech) such a thing is called an "impact fan" - as it has direct impact on the device requiring cooling; as opposed to a "chassis fan" or "case fan" which cools the entire chassis.

We occasionally use them in new designs when we are desperate.  The usual mean time to failure of the ones that we use are about 5 years, which is embarrassingly fast for the industry i'm in (TV equipment).  based on your comments, I'm guessing that there are cheaper ones out there that die faster.  I've made a mental note to upgrade the one in my unit ASAP.

Interesting. Makes sense, but I've never heard of them referred to that way in the computer industry. We just call the them "Heat Sink Fans". Same thing, different name.

Historically, the best ones were the Papst units from Germany, but they're expensive and hard to get. Nice thing about them is they quietly do a good job and last somewhere near forever. Since then, Noctua has become "The Brand To Use". Better specs, all around. Ceramic bearings mean MTBF numbers are up in the 150,000+ hour range, and turbulence-corrected blades make them very nearly silent, often outside the range of most dB meters.

They make them up to 120mm, so we put them on heatsinks, power supplies, and case fans to quiet things down and eliminate maintenance headaches. Some people think $25 is a bit much for a fan, but then they're replacing their $5 parts using $50 worth of labor every year until they finally realize they're spending a lot more money on cheap parts and lost production and they get religion. Do it right the first time, and you have more time and money for beer <grin>

 

[simple]

Mayfly, thank you so much for posting your in depth review.  :icon_thumright:

 

[mayfly]

Mayfly, thank you so much for posting your in depth review.  :icon_thumright:

You are quite welcome.  If you have any questions, please let me know.

 

[simple]

Mayfly, thank you so much for posting your in depth review.  :icon_thumright:

You are quite welcome.  If you have any questions, please let me know.

Will do. For now though, you have confirmed my fears of the unit being too labor intensive for me. That's a good thing because it costs a lot too.  :laughing7:  I'll keep experiment with my Digitech GSP1101 modelers for now. I would like to hear what you end up using on stage live to play through. I've found putting my guitar in my vocal wedge makes it difficult to hear vocals or guitar distinctly. Think I'm going to buy a Mackie Thump powered monitor and run that separately for guitar and see what happens.

 

[mayfly]

Mayfly, thank you so much for posting your in depth review.  :icon_thumright:

You are quite welcome.  If you have any questions, please let me know.

Will do. For now though, you have confirmed my fears of the unit being too labor intensive for me. That's a good thing because it costs a lot too.  :laughing7:  I'll keep experiment with my Digitech GSP1101 modelers for now. I would like to hear what you end up using on stage live to play through. I've found putting my guitar in my vocal wedge makes it difficult to hear vocals or guitar distinctly. Think I'm going to buy a Mackie Thump powered monitor and run that separately for guitar and see what happens.

Buddy!  You're killing me!  You can figure it out - don't worry. I can help you through it.  It's really not that big a deal.  And it sounds like an Orgasm of the Ears.

just call me Satan  :evil4: