Guitar to midi controller

[ptirman]

I'm finally putting the finishing touches on my Warmoth guitar (The Romulan War....Moth) and it will have the graph tech ghost system with the piezo equipped bridge and hexpander Midi interface. I will have to get the guitar to MIDI controller. I loved Burr Johnson's demo of the system and he was using an axon ax-50 controller but I can't find them available anywhere and it looks like they may have gone out of business or don't ship to the US anymore.

Here is GT's advert: http://truefiretv.net/graphtech/index.html?id=2%22%20width=%22489%22%20height=%22365%22%20frameborder=%220%22></iframe>

Anyone have experience they would like to share on these systems? Any suggestions as to a good alternative controller? I've read Roland makes a decent one but have a few models available.
Any thoughts appreciated,
PT

 

[elfro89]

I've often thought about diving into the midi controlled realm myself. I quite like the idea of playing a synth with my guitar! I know Roland make the GR-20 which apart from being an actual synth has a device on it which transfers the guitars signal into midi which you can then transfer onto computer with some kind of USB midi input device, or any other midi device of your choosing. I can't say I know enough about midi controllers to really give you a recommendation, Any converter that does the job well would be my guess. I know the GR-20 can take into account vibrato (but not all the patches allow for the variation in pitch quite like a vibrato does it.) But it does have this feature. I'm only familiar with the Roland series of products in this area and they have performed well with no noticeable latency between units. The Roland devices come with a pickup called the GK-3? i think. This allows you to use both a midi signal and the guitars own pickups. Although i must admit i have no idea about the device you mentioned.  :icon_scratch:

 

[ptirman]

Thanks Elfro89. So far it looks like the Roland GR20s may be the way to go from my reading on it. If you haven't seen that demo, take a look at it. Pretty impressive to be able to split the fretboard like that and play 2 different instruments at the same time and with any delay on it the possibilities are really amazing. I am not trying to plug graph tech, I was just really impressed with the demo.

 

[Wyliee]

I've got an Axon AX-100 that I was trying to sell.  Looks like I might want to hold on to it instead.....

 

[ptirman]

I've got an Axon AX-100 that I was trying to sell.  Looks like I might want to hold on to it instead.....

Have you been happy with it? The 50 looked simpler to use but my other thought was a 100, perhaps used, but depending on the fate of the company it might not be wise to buy one without any support.

 

[elfro89]

the gr-20 does look impressive, and for a time i was really considering buying one, but i must say the quality of the sound feels like a £200 casio keyboard in a box. It is great but it feels gimmicky. I decided a long time ago that if i was going to go synth i would have some kind of midi converter that when into either some kind of software synth for the pc, or hardware synth, the sounds you would get from these devices are amazingly great, beautiful soundscapes and the likes. For the same price as a gr-20 you could have:

some kind of midi controller going into a program called omnisphere. But it doesn't stop their you could use any software pretty much, violins bass guitars, where as the gr-20 gives you toys, there not necessarily studio quality toys.

here is an example of omnisphere, if you got a cheap guitar-midi converter. or even guitar streight to usb device you could use this instrument playing guitar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAJ5DWa0fLE

 

[ptirman]

the gr-20 does look impressive, and for a time i was really considering buying one, but i must say the quality of the sound feels like a £200 casio keyboard in a box. It is great but it feels gimmicky. I decided a long time ago that if i was going to go synth i would have some kind of midi converter that when into either some kind of software synth for the pc, or hardware synth, the sounds you would get from these devices are amazingly great, beautiful soundscapes and the likes. For the same price as a gr-20 you could have:

some kind of midi controller going into a program called omnisphere. But it doesn't stop their you could use any software pretty much, violins bass guitars, where as the gr-20 gives you toys, there not necessarily studio quality toys.

here is an example of omnisphere, if you got a cheap guitar-midi converter. or even guitar streight to usb device you could use this instrument playing guitar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAJ5DWa0fLE

This is great info! What I don't want is some 1979 sounding synthesizer. Been there, done that.

 

[elfro89]

This is great info! What I don't want is some 1979 sounding synthesizer. Been there, done that.

You could even purchase a usb sustainer pedal and play a chord on guitar and hold the chord and then select another sound and play over it. you dont even need to use omnisphere, here is a great orchestral software.

I've tried finding a good video but im having trouble finding something that sounds half decent on youtube. Without trying to advertise myself if you go to the myspace (www.myspace.com/peterobinson)

The 2 songs that are there were all done in miroslav philharmonic, with a midi converter you could easily make those sounds on a guitar. pretty useful if your interrested in those kinds of sounds for your album. There are so many awesome programs out there that give you access to so many great sounds. If your like me and can't afford to hire real musicians or a studio to record in, then a great option for a bass player would be trilian bass module.

Trillian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYU93OtvzjA

and then for drums
Superior drummer 2.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC6Hi8geRHk&feature=related


and of course with a guitar midi converter you could use all this on guitar. much better option then a one off GR-20

 

[bpmorton777]

you might still want to start off with the roland gr20 or a used gr33 (I use a gr33). they will have all the patches set up for a guitar controller out of the box and have the midi converter built in. later you could get some kind of hardware synth.

Brian

 

[ptirman]

you might still want to start off with the roland gr20 or a used gr33 (I use a gr33). they will have all the patches set up for a guitar controller out of the box and have the midi converter built in. later you could get some kind of hardware synth.

Brian

Thanks, very helpful. I still have a lot to learn. Have you been happy with the gr33? I'll be happy with accurate and fast response and sounds. I liked the axon 50 because it used a USB, was very accurate sounding to my ear, small and relatively simple to operate. Bummer it isn't available anymore.

 

[Wyliee]

I've got an Axon AX-100 that I was trying to sell.  Looks like I might want to hold on to it instead.....

Have you been happy with it? The 50 looked simpler to use but my other thought was a 100, perhaps used, but depending on the fate of the company it might not be wise to buy one without any support.

The unit works quite well.  Lot's of flexibility in the setup and operations.  I used it a bit in an old trio to fill things out.  Mostly simple sustain pads.  Ulitmately, I've switched over to MIDI bass pedals though.

 

[ptirman]

I've got an Axon AX-100 that I was trying to sell.  Looks like I might want to hold on to it instead.....

Have you been happy with it? The 50 looked simpler to use but my other thought was a 100, perhaps used, but depending on the fate of the company it might not be wise to buy one without any support.

The unit works quite well.  Lot's of flexibility in the setup and operations.  I used it a bit in an old trio to fill things out.  Mostly simple sustain pads.  Ulitmately, I've switched over to MIDI bass pedals though.

Thanks Wyliee!

 

[bpmorton777]

it's not really about how well the unit tracks, it's about how cleanly you play and knowing the limits of guitar/midi. A guitar synth wont track all the crazy things people do while they are playing.

On some of the patches , piano for instance, the GR33 is set to trigger a new note as soon as the pitch reaches the next note while synth patches have pitch shifting.

I think the GR33 is a lot more programmable than the newer GR20 it might have more sound file memory as well 9more raw sounds)

Brian

 

[elfro89]

I'm a complete perfectionist when it comes to my own music. the Roland stuff is good to a point but whenever I've used one for recording purposes the rest of my track sounded proper good quality and then came along the Roland, and my track started to sound like an early 90's backing track. - not what I want.

the problem I've always found with the Roland gear is that I can hear some kind of mastering going on before it reaches my pc. I don't want some unit spouting its crap all over my mix. For me the best solution would be, instead of blowing £500 on a Roland, you could spend the same amount, have omnisphere and a midi converter (which will allow you to play any further software you want with your guitar - the Roland does this too but £500 is a bit steep for such a device.) as long as you have a pc capable of recording then the type of sounds you could use are massive.

But yes there are limitations, but those same limitations apply to the Roland device anyway. You cant modulate the sound sample at the same time as you play, all you can do is change preset, volume and sustain the sound. You cant fiddle with all the intricacies of the sound as you play. However the big advantage of having it pc based, is you can record your guitar midi infomation, and then fiddle about with everything in omnisphere, change sounds or even change the program entirely you can even arse around with the notes themselves since the midi information is saved, you can't have anywhere near that kind of flexability on a roland, once your sound is recorded, thats it.

 

[-CB-]

My old Boss DR-5 "Doctor Rhythm" has a built in guitar-midi converter.  You can have your git-fiddle sound like any number of instruments, about 254 I think.  That is, you have several piano styles, several bass styles, horns galore, strings, organ settings, you name it.. even xylophone and vibes.

 

[ptirman]

I've been researching this a lot more intensely now that the War...Moth is nearing completion. I'm bummed that axon went out of business. Like someone else stated, Roland sounds aren't my cup of tea, not to knock them, I was more impressed with axon sounds and I'm not that interested in recreations of strats through a tweed amp, I'd rather use the real thing.
There is a new product out of Berkeley called String Port which seems a bit more complicated than the axon ax50 but looks more capable AND has state of the art synhtesis capabilities and sounds already included and you just run it through your Mac (which I already have).
Anyone have any experience with this product? ???

 

[tangent]

I have an axon and have used a stringport also.  IMHO Axon is better currently but stringport has more potential for the future.  The main difference is that stringport is a software solution whereas Axon and all other previous Guitar-MIDI stuff are hardware.

The expensive device stringport sells you basically does nothing other than send the 6 outputs from hexaphonic pickup into your computer via a midi port, all the heavy lifting is done in software.  Thus it puts a high load on your cpu compared to units like Axon where all the signal analysis is done using hardware DSP chips before it ever gets to your computer.

If you are using a laptop and running several heavy VST like omnisphere and kontakt in addition to DAW host, etc.. then it is likely that your processor usage may be very high already.  In that case the stringport becomes virtually useless since it either eats cpu cycles causing the VST to choke and sound like crap, or you give the VST priority and the note tracking is delayed.  My buddy who has the stringport only uses it on his desktop machine for this reason...

The other thing the stringport lacks which I really like on Axon is the pick zones which can be set to call a different midi patch depending on where the note is picked, ie near the bridge or near the neck.  It sucks that Terratec is no longer making the Axon =(

That said, stringport does have some cool features and I think it has a lot of potential in the future once it is more developed and more laptops become available with quad core and higher processors (these are huge benefit with stringport compared to a dual core).  Also for now stringport is mac only which keeps me from wanting one =)

 

[ptirman]

Thanks Tangent! Very helpful.
I bid on an axon ax 50 on ebay that originally sold new at around $500 and it went used on ebay for $650! I didn't win it. The fact that terratec doesn't make them anymore and there is the stringport solution made me not want to put that kind of a bid in. I had a long conversation with one of the guys at Stringport in Berkeley and it sounds really good for me because I have Macs but I told him very honestly that they needed to make it more user friendly because not everyone who would want a converter is as savvy as they obviously are. I'll probably get one but I hope they take that advice to heart. In the best case scenario, you could plug and play and click on a button that says: classical piano, U2 The Edge delay, saxophone, etc.......

Thanks again for your very helpful post.
Cheers,
PT

 

[tangent]

NP..

if you are looking for a plug and play solution you should probably go with Roland stuff though, they are the only thing that is anywhere close to 'plug and play'.

The sounds which come with Roland stuff are not the best but they make it much easier to get off the ground initially and you can always still use external sounds later.. on other systems the learning curve can be pretty steep if you have no prior experience with VST instruments and DAW software

Thanks Tangent! Very helpful.
I bid on an axon ax 50 on ebay that originally sold new at around $500 and it went used on ebay for $650! I didn't win it. The fact that terratec doesn't make them anymore and there is the stringport solution made me not want to put that kind of a bid in. I had a long conversation with one of the guys at Stringport in Berkeley and it sounds really good for me because I have Macs but I told him very honestly that they needed to make it more user friendly because not everyone who would want a converter is as savvy as they obviously are. I'll probably get one but I hope they take that advice to heart. In the best case scenario, you could plug and play and click on a button that says: classical piano, U2 The Edge delay, saxophone, etc.......

Thanks again for your very helpful post.
Cheers,
PT

 

[richship]

I used to have a Roland GI-10 and wasn't thrilled with how well it worked. I'm sure they have updated things over the years, but I think the basic tech is the same - it times a cycle of the waveform to determine the pitch and then triggers the MIDI note.

The Axon boxes use somthing called "pick transients" that can figure out the pitch without waiting for a whole cycle. The triggering is noticably faster. Of course this requires clean technique with a pick. Another cool thing it can do it detect where on the string you pick and modify MIDI parameters based on that (filters, modulation, even play different sounds).

The box I have is a Yamaha G-50, which was designed by Axon. It is a good alternative if you want the Axon tech without the high price (at least when I bought it). My only caveat is that I have only used it with magnetic GK-type pickups. I think Axon did some work on their later boxes to improve piezo performance.

I just ordered the parts to finigh my guitar that will have the Ghost hardware (the LB63 Floyd is on sale for a good price as of a couple days ago) and will be able to report if it works well with the G-50 at some point (there is a switch on the Ghost 13-pin output for compatibility). My plan was to pick up a more recent Axon if it didn't. That sucks if they have gone out of production.

When looking for synths to use with a MIDI guitar, you want to make sure it supports Multiple Mono mode or is multitimbral and can set each voice to mono (the second is harder to set up, but can play different sounds for each string). Each string needs it's own MIDI channel so they will bend separately and can play unisons. You can't compromise on this. Roland synths work very well, even older ones. My favorite to use is the MKS-70.