Gotoh tuners for maximum string wind on post? (Soloist non-locking build)

[gauchosilvertone]

Here was my inspiration: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3553/3604750201_815a9b83e5.jpg

I just wanted a guitar that plays awesome and stays in tune, and hopefully sounds great, though probably quite generic as basically a humbucker strat.

Mine is an alpine white body (took advantage of the WarPaint sale!). I'm not going super-metal, But I wanted this elegant yin & yang black and white look.

22 frets
Mahogany neck
Ebony board
Wilkinson (Gotoh) trem
Non-slanted headstock

As mentioned above, no slanted headstock (I want a bombproof guitar I can throw in the back of the car, and I'm sick of tuning problems!!!!), and no Floyd (I love the system but they NEVER give you truly great tone!)

AND I don't wanna use string trees (did I mention sick of tuning problems???)

SOOO- I need to wind the strings down as much as possible on the tuner shafts to get adequate break angle.

The headstock is drilled for Gotoh holes, so, which tuners should I go for?  In retrospect I realize that vintage slotted tuners probably would've been best for this application, which would've been fine with me because I love the things even though it would've been pretty inconsistent with the overall modern look of the axe. 

I'd prefer not to use mini tuners because they look dopey to me but I'm most interested in what is gonna WORK.

General feedback not limited to the tuner topic welcome!  Happy to join the Warmoth club!

 

[pabloman]

Sperzel Trim-Loks are pretty shallow and you won't have to wind a bunch of times around a post. Any staggered locking tuner should work for you. That's what they're for.

 

[gauchosilvertone]

Appreciate the feedback. I'm leery of this solution however. Pi HATE the tinky tone you get when there's not sufficient break angle, and there's no way to tell it's going to be enough (esp on a non-angled 'stock) until you try em- in which case if they don't work, I'm stuck trying to resell the parts.

I am pretty fanatical about adequate (or more) break angle (the one point of compromise I'm willing to make re: friction and tuning stability) and I also believe there's something tonally to having the string make maximum contact with the post. I firmly believe the tuner is not just a point to grab onto a string, thus my general distaste for locking tuners.

Any guys use tuners that fit the Warmoth Gotoh-sized holes that have plenty of post to wind down on?

 

[stratamania]

Welcome to the forum.

Staggered tuners will give you the break angle needed. They don't create a plinky tone and multiple winds can contribute to tuning problems with a Tremolo.

A well adjusted nut is also needed. But staggered locking tuners are the way to go unless you are on a retro vintage build.

Gotoh make tuners but you could try some hipshots

http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=24591.0

 

[gauchosilvertone]

Thank you.  I've played multiple Carvins with locking tuners that were horrible culprits when it came to this, but I'll take your word for it when it comes to how Warmoth cuts their necks.

 

[stratamania]

I cant comment on Carvin's as I've never seen one up close being in the UK. 

Bear in mind, that Warmoth necks are very good out of the box, but the nuts depending on string gauge and so forth may need a touch of adjustment, similarly with frets. Good to go but if you want to go to town, like I usually do you can.

As with all things the devils in the details, but I would not dismiss locking tuners based on just that. If you get a chance go and try some top makers and Fenders with locking tuners. That is where i first saw the Hipshots I like to use on a £5000 guitar.  I thought I bet I could make a Warmoth instead with these tuners. Although the current build I am doing will be using F Tuners on the Woodstock guitar.

 

[gauchosilvertone]

Thank you.  I'll open my mind on this topic.  Especially since the benefit of increased likelihood of tuning stability re: locking tuners surely should outweigh whatever (imagined?) benefit I think I get from having plenty of string winds on the post

Still would be interested in any answers to my original question just for reference.

 

[gauchosilvertone]

Sperzel Trim-Loks are pretty shallow and you won't have to wind a bunch of times around a post. Any staggered locking tuner should work for you. That's what they're for.

I can't use Sperzels since I had it routed for Gotoh (or I could, but Sperzels are 25/64 where Gotoh are 13/32, so there would be 1/64" of play.  I'm spending way too much money on this thing to have anything not quite right).

So I'm looking at these locking Gotoh tuners, though I hate the look of the pegs.  Much prefer a smooth oval look.

http://www.philadelphialuthiertools.com/tuning-machines/guitar-tuning-machines/gotoh-sg381-mg-t-magnum-lock-traditional-guitar-l6-tuning-machine-black/?utm_source=googleps&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=google_shopping

Experience or opinions?

 

[pabloman]

You can use the Sperzels. I wouldn't recommend something that didn't work. When the tuners are mounted there is no play. Do you know how big 1/64" is? Do you realize what that becomes when the tuner is placed in the hole? I can't see how you'd worry about an ineffectual .0078125" clearence yet be willing to accept some sloppy ass vintage style tuners. Good luck. ccasion14:

 

[gauchosilvertone]

I do know how big one sixty fourth of an inch is. I just figured if you're going to do something right you might as well do it as right as possible, not close. And as a Newbie I have no way of knowing whether yours or anyone else's advice is based on experience... Just because somebody has oodles of posts doesn't necessarily mean they have anything else, namely experience and knowledge! One never knows how carefully others are actually reading one's posts.

I appreciate the feedback and I will look into the tuners.. Regarding vintage tuners, I have never had a problem with them. Split shaft tuners with the end of the string strung down into the hole are extremely stable. I guess my real problem is I've never played a guitar with locking tuners that truly had great resonance. This includes one of my good buddies who has his own Paul Reed Smith signature guitar - I've played a half dozen of his very expensive, very well made guitars - all of them with locking tuners - and none of them with killer tone:/

I just don't understand what is considered to be sloppy about non locking tuners. Sure if you are doing dive bombs like crazy you're going to create enough slack that some of it will get up to the posts.your strings are thoroughly stretched, there's no way that string is moving around the post. the only real benefit I see is ease of string change, and to me personally that's not a benefit at all.

 

[pabloman]

My beef isn't with non locking tuners. It is with the Gotoh vintage tuners. I've replaced several sets on a guy's custom shop fenders because the posts had a lot of slop against the bushings. This caused the tuners to require extra and inconsistent torque. This in turn led to tuning instability. The tuners were all replaced with non locking Schallers for what it's worth.

 

[swarfrat]

If you ask nicely your wife probably has aluminum shim stock in .63 mil and .96 mil sizes in the kitchen.

 

[stratamania]

The buttons can be swapped out on the Gotohs. Here's a random example.

https://www.allparts.com/TK-7728-055-Pearloid-Schaller-Style-Button-Set-for-Gotoh_p_3936.html

 

[bagman67]

If you ask nicely your wife probably has aluminum shim stock in .63 mil and .96 mil sizes in the kitchen.

Heh.

 

[BigSteve22]

Two thumbs up for Hipshot tuners, I love them. Used their Modern sized tuners on my Strat and used their Vintage dimension tuners on a '64 Hagstrom re-build. Both with staggered posts, no trees on the Strat, and no tuning or tone problems.

I used the Schaller, 11/32 - 25/64, tuner holes with the Modern tuners and they fit VERY snugly. I agree with pabloman, they will work perfectly with the Gotoh tuner holes. AND you get to support a locally owned, small company that does excellent work and provides excellent support if needed. (Did I mention that they're made in NY, USA?)

Just MHO.

 

[Badside]

My main axe, a Strat, has the good ole' 6-screws vintage tremolo (decked), locking Grover tuners, roller string trees and a LSR nut. That thing just won't go out of tune, even with heavy trem use. It's more stable than my Floyd Rose guitars.
Another good reason for going LSR: no need for initial filing by a tech and you can change string gauges as you wish.
Either way, works for me

Maximum string wind on post = more room for strings stretching and going out of tune

No matter what configuration you go with, proper stretching of new strings (stretch and stretch until it stays in tune after you try and stretch it some more) is always important. Learned the hard way when I couldn't figure out why my dual-lockers wouldn't stay in tune.

 

[gauchosilvertone]

Thanks all.  Looking into Hipshot.  As I mentioned earlier I've already spent waaaay too much money for my situation just on the body and neck (neck especially) so it'll be awhile on the other parts, so I've got time to research for sure.

 

[gauchosilvertone]

Hipshot black locking (I assume that's what Griplock means): http://store.hipshotproducts.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=392

Gotoh black locking http://www.guitarcenter.com/Gotoh-Locking-Tuners-Right-Hand---6-Pack-108745522-i1129916.gc?country=us&currency=usd&isfullsite=1&source=4WWRWXMP&kwid=bingproductads-plaid^{product@ADL1partition@ADL1id}-sku^108745522@ADL4GC-adType^PLA-device^c-adid^3645654924


Also I'm assuming open back is generally considered a bad idea?  I sure like the look better.  And while I'm building a guitar looks are pretty much an equal consideration to all other factors in this case- My whole goal is to have a guitar that just begs me to play it.

 

[stratamania]

The first link you posted goes to a non locking selection. The drop down on that page has the open and closed griploks which are indeed the locking versions.

I use the open gear griploks and I get them from a supplier called Sporthitech, who have a web and e bay presence. They tend to have a good range.

 

[gauchosilvertone]

Again a bit embarrassed to be so image-centric but I hate the shape of the tuning pegs on the Hipshots.  I do very much like the idea of supporting a USA company, but gawd I hate that look.

I'm leaning Gotoh unless someone steers me elsewhere.  I see the Sperzels are considerably more expensive- I've always had total consistency and quality from Gotoh.

Anyone got reason to steer me towards Sperzel?