Gotoh tuners for maximum string wind on post? (Soloist non-locking build)
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gauchosilvertone
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OH! Didn't know I could do vintage buttons! It's that curvy trapezoid thing that makes my eyes upchuck.
Well that may settle it.
And no long-term concerns about dust and whatnot getting in the open backs?
Well that may settle it.
And no long-term concerns about dust and whatnot getting in the open backs?
Yeah I don't really like those original buttons either. I'd say you're fine with the open back tuners. I have a 40 year old acoustic withe exposed gears and a 10 year old custom built singlecut with Waverly tuners and they work great. I don't have any experience with those particular Hipshots, but I would have no problem pulling the trigger.
stratamania
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Here's a link to where I swapped out the buttons, with a few photos. One or two are a little out of focus but it gives the idea. hipshot offer multiple types of buttons.
http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=22445.msg336528#msg336528
http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=22445.msg336528#msg336528
gauchosilvertone
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SOOOO- all the parts are in. And I'm pleased...
...except- the Hipshots are quite sloppy fitting (to me). Ugh.
I really want to do this RIGHT, but I'm so damn tired of waiting. Again the holes are Gotoh. The slop might not bother some but I don't want any play in there putting stress on the screw, and more importantly robbing tone.
Frustrated...thoughts?
...except- the Hipshots are quite sloppy fitting (to me). Ugh.
I really want to do this RIGHT, but I'm so damn tired of waiting. Again the holes are Gotoh. The slop might not bother some but I don't want any play in there putting stress on the screw, and more importantly robbing tone.
Frustrated...thoughts?
Cagey
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Planet Waves tuners use the same hole diameter as the Gotoh parts, but they don't want the upper lip that a Gotoh hole asks for. You can get rid of that lip with a reamer or a dowel/pencil/etc. wrapped in 220 grit sandpaper. Downside is they're lockers, which you say aren't acceptable.
I'll tell ya - I've been playing/repairing/building guitars for ~45 years, and locking tuners are the best things that have happened to guitars since steel strings. Why anybody would use anything else is a mystery for the ages. Discounting their use is to deny yourself a fantastic innovation. For many folks, that's the first thing they invest in for a new guitar that doesn't have them, even if it means exposing open holes behind the headstock left over from the machine heads originally installed.
You really don't want multiple wraps of string on the tuner post. That's bad news. Worried about staying in tune? Eliminate that undesirable situation. A locking tuner with a half a wrap on it is as good as a locking nut. You also don't need to have some severe angle off the nut. What you need is a well-cut nut. Get that, and you can have a straight headstock with no string trees, and you won't have tuning problems. Guaranteed. I do it all the time, and have for years. No punishment on playability or tonal character. Just an easier guitar to live with. The only exception would be some of the acid trip inspired headstocks where the strings angle off in two dimensions. Then you need a locking nut and it doesn't matter what tuners you use. They're just anchor points to hold the strings in place until you lock the nut.
I'll tell ya - I've been playing/repairing/building guitars for ~45 years, and locking tuners are the best things that have happened to guitars since steel strings. Why anybody would use anything else is a mystery for the ages. Discounting their use is to deny yourself a fantastic innovation. For many folks, that's the first thing they invest in for a new guitar that doesn't have them, even if it means exposing open holes behind the headstock left over from the machine heads originally installed.
You really don't want multiple wraps of string on the tuner post. That's bad news. Worried about staying in tune? Eliminate that undesirable situation. A locking tuner with a half a wrap on it is as good as a locking nut. You also don't need to have some severe angle off the nut. What you need is a well-cut nut. Get that, and you can have a straight headstock with no string trees, and you won't have tuning problems. Guaranteed. I do it all the time, and have for years. No punishment on playability or tonal character. Just an easier guitar to live with. The only exception would be some of the acid trip inspired headstocks where the strings angle off in two dimensions. Then you need a locking nut and it doesn't matter what tuners you use. They're just anchor points to hold the strings in place until you lock the nut.
gauchosilvertone
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Thanks Cagey.
I got Hipshot open backed locking tuners. I took the locking advice.
My problem is, from what I'd read I gathered the Hipshots would work great with the Gotoh dimension holes. That's not the case. Sloppy.
To me, a proper fitting tuner's shaft should be making contact, or dang near making contact, all the way around it as you insert it into the peg hole. These holes allow the tuners to wobble side to side slightly even when fully inserted.
Will they work? Sure. But after spending all this money and effort getting a guitar that is specifically supposed to be a high-performance, no sloppiness, no "almost right" about it, I am thinking I should return the Hipshots and find something with the exact dimensions I need. I'd rather have to ream the holes slightly to get a proper fit as you described than have a sloppy fit that's gonna harm tuning stability, put stress on the screws, and REDUCE CONTACT. I am a big stickler for that. All about transfer, and I believe that point of contact is at least as important as the nut, if not more. Crucial point in the feedback loop of vibration transfer to the headstock.
At this point I think I'll just order Gotoh locking tuners, because my only reason for not doing that in the first place was to support a USA company. I'm also gonna have to order oval buttons if I stick with the Hipshots because the shape of their buttons is such an eyesore and incongruous with the rest of the instrument (to me)...so that's more money.
Thanks all.
I got Hipshot open backed locking tuners. I took the locking advice.
My problem is, from what I'd read I gathered the Hipshots would work great with the Gotoh dimension holes. That's not the case. Sloppy.
To me, a proper fitting tuner's shaft should be making contact, or dang near making contact, all the way around it as you insert it into the peg hole. These holes allow the tuners to wobble side to side slightly even when fully inserted.
Will they work? Sure. But after spending all this money and effort getting a guitar that is specifically supposed to be a high-performance, no sloppiness, no "almost right" about it, I am thinking I should return the Hipshots and find something with the exact dimensions I need. I'd rather have to ream the holes slightly to get a proper fit as you described than have a sloppy fit that's gonna harm tuning stability, put stress on the screws, and REDUCE CONTACT. I am a big stickler for that. All about transfer, and I believe that point of contact is at least as important as the nut, if not more. Crucial point in the feedback loop of vibration transfer to the headstock.
At this point I think I'll just order Gotoh locking tuners, because my only reason for not doing that in the first place was to support a USA company. I'm also gonna have to order oval buttons if I stick with the Hipshots because the shape of their buttons is such an eyesore and incongruous with the rest of the instrument (to me)...so that's more money.
Thanks all.
Cagey
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Well, as I pointed out earlier, the Planet Waves parts will fit those holes if you remove the lip at the face of the headstock. I agree that tuners should fit tight. I usually recommend Schaller Mini-Lockers, although Sperzels work as well. They end up being a press-fit in the headstock, so they're tighter than dammit. Plus, they're both high-quality locking tuners. Unfortunately, they're not an option for you at this point.
gauchosilvertone
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Press-fit- meaning you need a hydraulic press?
And you say not an option now because the Gotoh holes are too large?
Lastly, you agree the Hipshots are probably too small for these holes? Or am I being overly A.R.?
Thanks again.
And you say not an option now because the Gotoh holes are too large?
Lastly, you agree the Hipshots are probably too small for these holes? Or am I being overly A.R.?
Thanks again.
Cagey
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When I say "press fit" in relation to tuners, I mean "almost". They're going to be very tight. You'll be able to push them in by hand until there's about 1/16" to 1/8" of depth left to go. Then, you turn on the threaded bushings from the face of the headstock, and as you tighten them up, they'll pull the tuner the rest of the way in. You really can't get a better connection than that without risking splitting the wood.
I can't remember from my research whether the holes you have are too large or too small for the other tuners, just that they're wrong.
Finally, any tuner that you put into too large a hole is going to have issues, So, no, you're not being anal retentive. They need to be tight.
I can't remember from my research whether the holes you have are too large or too small for the other tuners, just that they're wrong.
Finally, any tuner that you put into too large a hole is going to have issues, So, no, you're not being anal retentive. They need to be tight.
gauchosilvertone
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Update:
I have Gotoh (non-locking) tuners on my mid 90's Samick Blues Saraceno TV Twenty. I tried one of those in my Warmoth neck and found it only very slightly tighter fitting than the Hipshot.
I was pretty set on going Gotoh to be sure the fit would be right, and I've always, always had great experience with all things Gotoh. Never the slightest issue.
But this has me wondering, if I order the Gotohs am I even going to get a noticeable improvement?
Is it possible their dimensions have changed in 15-20 years?
I want things as right as possible, but I don't wanna push everything back 2 weeks or more and end up not even getting a noticeable improvement.
I have Gotoh (non-locking) tuners on my mid 90's Samick Blues Saraceno TV Twenty. I tried one of those in my Warmoth neck and found it only very slightly tighter fitting than the Hipshot.
I was pretty set on going Gotoh to be sure the fit would be right, and I've always, always had great experience with all things Gotoh. Never the slightest issue.
But this has me wondering, if I order the Gotohs am I even going to get a noticeable improvement?
Is it possible their dimensions have changed in 15-20 years?
I want things as right as possible, but I don't wanna push everything back 2 weeks or more and end up not even getting a noticeable improvement.
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