Gotoh Stealth Tuners - how to mount on Warmoth neck?

[propower]

Hi All,

I am making a light as possible Tele and want to use these tuners - but...
They have 6mm shafts and a bushing that is 8mm/ (OD). The smallest Tuner hole (11/32) choice on the necks is 11/32 (8.73mm). Worse than that the drawing for the stealth shows a stepped tuner hole with 6mm at the back of the neck for maybe 2mm and then 8mm the rest of the way up. I found a thread that shows a bushing with a 6mm ID, 11/32 OD to replace the top Stealth bushing but this leaves a lot of slop (6mm post and 8.73mm hole) at the base so this part of the shaft is unsupported...

Any one used these on the Warmoth necks? Any advise? Is there a custom tuner hole option somewhere?

http://www.g-gotoh.com/international/images/Stealth-en-1.jpg

Thanks!

 

[Cagey]

There are stepped bits made specifically to drill that particular type of hole, but I'm having trouble finding that size combination. If a better idea doesn't come up, I think it might be worth a call to Gotoh to see if they have a tool to recommend.

 

[propower]

Thanks for the quick reply. I figured one could get a stepped bit but the problem starts with all the choices for tuner holes from Warmoth start with 11/16 (8.73mm) which is too big. There is no choice I see to not have tuner holes. Maybe i didn't understand you - are you suggesting Warmoth will get this bit and start offering that hole profile?

If we are stuck with the 11/32 as smallest - the collar I found would at least secure the top of the tuner - would that be good enough?

https://www.wdmusic.com/tuning_machine_bushings_ferrules_6.html

Thanks

 

[Cagey]

It appears Warmoth doesn't support that particular tuner. Whether they will in the future probably depends on how much call they get for it. I suspect that option isn't going to be available any time soon, as those tuners aren't in widespread use. Not that there's anything wrong with them, just that it's a relatively new design and some R&D work and setup of their own would need to be done before they could accommodate.

It would be worth a call to them (253-845-0403) to see what they say. Their sales guys aren't just order-takers, they're actually a remarkably knowledgeable group, and would have more insight as to work-arounds or future plans. If nothing else, they may be able to specify a neck without tuner holes drilled so you could handle it yourself.

 

[propower]

I talked to Warmoth and for $15 on any custom neck build they can leave the tuner holes out. Past that the collars I found are the only reasonable option for an in stock neck. Not ideal but shouldn't be bad either...

 

[Cagey]

If you're gonna go first class and buy a Warmoth neck, why would you want a "less than ideal" tuner installation? Tuners are important. Beside their obvious purpose, they're the string's connection to the neck. You don't want a half-assed mount point. Maybe buy a GFS or MightyMite neck and experiment with that, then once you've got a solid solution, use it on a good neck. If it costs $15, big whoop. You're gonna pay that much to get it shipped, and shipping doesn't do anything for tone  :icon_biggrin:

 

[propower]

What an interesting response..

What in your opinion is the difference in using the adapter collar that matches both the 11/32 std hole and the 6mm shaft of the stealth and then securing the tuner with the two screws to the back of the headstock -VS- a GOTOH  SD91 that has a 6.35mm shaft and a matching collar to fit the 11/32 hole and then secured by the two bottom screws? (The SD91 is the nearest match to the Warmoth listed Vintage one - please let me know if there is a better matching part). The Warmoth diagram indicates a 8.35mm shaft but also has a collar - I find no GOTOH matching part.

Not trying to be argumentative - just trying to learn.

 

[Cagey]

I'm sorry; I didn't pop the link to the bushing you were talking about. It appears that would be your solution if you want to use those tuners.

That said, I'm not sure you're saving any weight to speak of, unless grams count. If it was me, I'd want the tightest tuners I could install, and I'd want them to lock. Tight means good coupling, and locking means good tuning, with no string wraps. The difference in weight between a set of Sperzels and a set of Klusons, for instance, is thought to be big but isn't. We're talking maybe 20 grams or so. So, guys will install those sloppy Klusons thinking they're doing a Good Thing when they're actually just letting themselves into a lifetime of nightmare tuning issues and poorly coupled strings with no upside to compensate.

 

[propower]

Thanks for this response -
The weight of the tuners is amplified by their distance from the center of gravity of the guitar. They don't cause neck dive but they can sure add to it - a lot.
A quick example:
On a 6lb total instrument it goes roughly like this - to offset 10 oz. on the headstock (20" from the Center of gravity) takes 2X that weight at the rear strap button (10" from COG). Of course no one can add 20 oz to the rear strap button. So lets talk that this weight will be 1/2 way from the strap button to the center of Gravity (roughly the Neck pickup). Now we need 40oz at that spot! The Body I am using is ~ 38oz to begin with. The tuners I first mentioned are very good ones and weight 2.3oz for all 6!

Hipshots are next best in locking world and are 1.2 oz each... though I would love to know what replacng the metal buttons for plastic on them would do.

Apologies if any of this looks confrontational! I am a retired Engineer (still in recovery so to speak!) with a touchy back and play standing 4 - 6 hours a day depending on gigs. Weight is a big deal for me .

 

[Cagey]

No apologies necessary; I understand. I have issues myself that would prevent me from standing for an hour, let alone 4 or 5, no matter how light the guitar is. But, is it the weight you're worried about, or neck dive? I'm an engineer myself (retired EE), so I understand leverage and all that fun stuff, but unless you're playing one of Gibson's less-than-thoughtful designs, neck dive isn't going to be decided by tuners. Not even close. I've put both Bloodwood and Ebony necks on Strats, for instance, which weigh in the 2lb+ range, equipped with Schaller lockers, and still no neck dive. The upper horn strap hanger is far enough ahead of the COG that it doesn't matter.

 

[propower]

Ahh... good (I am EE too

I find most lightweight Teles are serious Neck Divers. A 6.6lb Anderson Tele with tremolo I played recently was this way. Luckily I cure most of this by mounting the Strap buttons of my tele strat and a semihollow on the lower forward neck plate screw or on the neck heel. This has the added advantage of bringing the neck much closer in to my body and giving the guitar a nice 30+ degree or so up angle making for a virtually straight wrist on the left hand. My current Tele is 7.4lbs with open frame no name tuners. My 8lb Strat (played a 10lb one for 20+ years) has the Fender locking ones. Both are just too heavy for me anymore.

So - if it were a reasonable thing to do - I would gladly use the Stealth tuners just to get the extra edge. I would be curious what the lightest Locking ones would be. The Vintage ones at Warmoth are kind of the next lightest though I have never used them. 

 

[Cagey]

You're hurting yourself by putting the forward strap hanger on the neck plate. That's Gibson's typical mistake, although they usually don't have a great deal of choice due to body design.

I don't think I've ever seen the neck heel be the CoG. Far from it, for the reason you already point out - leverage. That's why the vast majority of guitars have an upper horn. Gotta have a strap hanger mount point forward of the heel, usually up around the 12th fret. Row through a few catalogs - you'll see the vast majority of electrics with some sort of upper horn, not for aesthetic reasons, but mechanical ones.

If you need the guitar up high or angled up a certain way (which, honestly, would make a lot more people play a lot easier), that's a matter of strap adjustment (once you get the hangers in the right place). Strats and Teles should never have any dive to them.

 

[propower]

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. Many years - many instruments and my position is not movable on that point .

Any advise on lightest weight tuners (locking or otherwise) is welcome though.

 

[mayfly]

Gentlemen, I'm a non-retired EE and I'd like to steer the conversation back to tuners!

For light weight locking tuners, I personally have had good luck with hipshot tuners, and sadly have had bad luck with Sperzel.  Gotoh stuff in general I really like.  No experience with those particular tuners mind you, but they do look very interesting and if they are like anything else Gotoh they will work well.

Regarding the headstock hole, I'm glad that you found a solution with those bushings but I'm slightly concerned that you might see the hole from the back side.  Those tuners are soooo small that they look like they won't cover up any oversized hole.  but if its the tuner you want to go with I say give it a shot and report back! 

 

[Cagey]

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. Many years - many instruments and my position is not movable on that point .

Any advise on lightest weight tuners (locking or otherwise) is welcome though.

Somehow, I think we're misunderstanding each other.

I do know this, though - if you try hanging almost any guitar from the neck heel and the tail end of the body, it's gonna neck dive even if you don't put any tuners on it at all. Unless, of course, the body is ridiculously heavy. The empirical evidence is huge, which is what leads me to believe we're not understanding each other.

 

[Cagey]

Gentlemen, I'm a non-retired EE and I'd like to steer the conversation back to tuners!

You non-retired engineers are all alike! Always trying to be reasonable and stop fights! Well, I won't have it, dammit!

waitaminnit...I'm the admin here...

Ok. You guys calm down RFN! Don't make me pull this forum over!

 

[nickname009]

propower,
I'm planning on installing the exact same machine heads on a warmoth neck drilled for 11/32" sized holes.

The WD music link you put goes to a generic WD music page. Were you able to sort this issue out and if so, would you mind sharing which part # on the WD site were the correct bushings?

Thanks in advance!

 

[BlueTalon]

What in your opinion is the difference in using the adapter collar that matches both the 11/32 std hole and the 6mm shaft of the stealth and then securing the tuner with the two screws to the back of the headstock -VS- a GOTOH  SD91 that has a 6.35mm shaft and a matching collar to fit the 11/32 hole and then secured by the two bottom screws?

Those bushings look like they will do the job, and the two screws at the base should secure the tuners just fine.  But you have to add the weight of the bushings to the weight of the tuners.  You'll still most likely end up with a net weight saving by using those tuners with those bushings, but the percentage of weight reduction will be a lot less.  And it's at that point that it might be worth considering other options.

Personally, I wouldn't use those tuners at all.  Mostly because I'm a bass player, but at least partly because they look a lot flimsier than more standard configurations of tuners.  If I was putting together a guitar and weight savings was one of my primary considerations, I'd find the lightest conventional tuners I could find and use those instead. 

I gotta agree with Cagey about one thing in particular -- mounting the strap hangers on the neck plate instead of the upper horn (such as it is on a tele) works against you regarding the COG and neck dive.  Now, if doing that helps you to get the elevated neck effect that you like, a high enough angle will align those two points on the same vertical plane, and then it's a wash.  But that wouldn't be true on a strat unless the neck angle was ridiculous.

The WD music link you put goes to a generic WD music page. Were you able to sort this issue out and if so, would you mind sharing which part # on the WD site were the correct bushings?

It looks like these ones are it.

https://www.wdmusic.com/kluson-adapter-bushing-set-for-vintage-stamped-steel-series-tuning-machines-details.html