DangerousR6
Mythical Status
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- 15,478
Wow, he can play bar chords... :laughing11:elgravos said:
Gibson tosses around its weight
- Thread starter AirCap
- Start date
S
swarfrat
Guest
And lawsuit Ibanezes
RosamondEdge
Junior Member
- Messages
- 43
Re-post from my thread:
"Authentic" my middle foot! I have seen things and traded stories with guys in shops about cheap guitars. Parts made with Chinese pot-metal made from an amalgam of metals that some CCP screw found in a pile that morning. Mostly scrap from the USA: drink cans, toasters, zinc, tin, some plastic, and a dead cat. I saw a guy in a shop break a tailpiece, with little force, because they made it out of cheap stuff. The wood comes from the bingo tree or the demolition pile, but they will call it something like "Utah Mahogany" or something stupid to keep the name Mahogany on the tag. It sounds and plays as it came off of a picket fence somewhere, but they will sell it to you for under $1,000.00
You can get a good one, but you will have to mortgage your house or sell a kidney to get one. There is one LP that I liked, but it cost $12,000.00! The rest of the cheaper ones feel like the acoustics that my grandfather used to buy down in Mexico (TJ). I have made guitars, and I know what excellent craftsmanship is (Check out Warmoth). This company did not make my LP, but it kicks like a mule through my amplifier, and I made it for around $1,500.00 in 2007. It is the guitar that I wanted, and I love it.
I have studied some of this company's claims, and they are far from the first company to put an open-book shape on their headstocks. There are banjo companies that have done it longer than they have. There are civil war era instruments that have the book-shape on the headstock, and Disney might have something to say about those "mouse ears" of theirs. Are they going after libraries for their open book shapes?
Screwing over companies like PRS and Warmoth is not going to win this company friends and influence people. They send out cease-and-desist letters to scare guitar and parts makers, but no judge or jury from sea to shining sea will side with them. Companies should go to court, win the case in court, and counter-sue them into the ground for libel, damages, and expenses. PRS is already a precedent case, and this company needs to stop playing the boogyman.
There are hundreds of little shops and luthiers that make a better product, and this company is doubling down on Stupid, Dumb, and Foolish (the law firm of the desperate and incompetent).
If they half their prices and tripled their QT, the people would buy their guitars, but they are selling to the same people that went to Woodstock. Slash is the last of the great guitarists known for their LPs, and his famous guitar was a copy too! -- Most people do not know that. This company is only a name as of late. Unless they sell to the younger people in high school, they are going to need the Ouija board to reach their customer base.
The public drives the market and selling guitars made in the USA, with parts made in the USA, for $6000.00 (plus tax) is not going to inspire the next generation of Rockers, punks, and Shredders. They cannot afford to buy a quality instrument on the money that they make flipping burgers. The reason that EDM and other prefab music is popular with the teens and college crowd is that it is cheap to produce, and kids can make it in their bedrooms or a garage for near-free. They used to play guitars in bands, but the kids have to either, buy a guitar made in Cheap-as-crap-a-stan, or save up the $7,000.00 to buy the US made LP like the one that guy that their grandparents used to listen to would play in the 1970s.
On a personal note, I play left-handed guitars because of a car crash. This company frequently throws the left-handed guitar players under the bus when it comes to selection and quality, or they charge us over $5,000.00 to have something functional. I go to other companies because I want a higher-end model with the cool features and designs that never make it to the left-handed models. The signature guitars are mostly right hand only, and I would love to switch, but my left hand is only able to strum and pick (I have to use a brace). A few years back, I worked a day job with Les Paul's granddaughter (super nice girl), and she told me that he gave me his blessing before he died because she had told him about what I was doing and liked it. This company needs to do a 180 and change their philosophy and business model.
Note: I left out the name of the company, but we know who it is, and it seems that they are up to old habits again, and I do not wish to cause trouble, but I wanted to voice what some of us are thinking.
"Authentic" my middle foot! I have seen things and traded stories with guys in shops about cheap guitars. Parts made with Chinese pot-metal made from an amalgam of metals that some CCP screw found in a pile that morning. Mostly scrap from the USA: drink cans, toasters, zinc, tin, some plastic, and a dead cat. I saw a guy in a shop break a tailpiece, with little force, because they made it out of cheap stuff. The wood comes from the bingo tree or the demolition pile, but they will call it something like "Utah Mahogany" or something stupid to keep the name Mahogany on the tag. It sounds and plays as it came off of a picket fence somewhere, but they will sell it to you for under $1,000.00
You can get a good one, but you will have to mortgage your house or sell a kidney to get one. There is one LP that I liked, but it cost $12,000.00! The rest of the cheaper ones feel like the acoustics that my grandfather used to buy down in Mexico (TJ). I have made guitars, and I know what excellent craftsmanship is (Check out Warmoth). This company did not make my LP, but it kicks like a mule through my amplifier, and I made it for around $1,500.00 in 2007. It is the guitar that I wanted, and I love it.
I have studied some of this company's claims, and they are far from the first company to put an open-book shape on their headstocks. There are banjo companies that have done it longer than they have. There are civil war era instruments that have the book-shape on the headstock, and Disney might have something to say about those "mouse ears" of theirs. Are they going after libraries for their open book shapes?
Screwing over companies like PRS and Warmoth is not going to win this company friends and influence people. They send out cease-and-desist letters to scare guitar and parts makers, but no judge or jury from sea to shining sea will side with them. Companies should go to court, win the case in court, and counter-sue them into the ground for libel, damages, and expenses. PRS is already a precedent case, and this company needs to stop playing the boogyman.
There are hundreds of little shops and luthiers that make a better product, and this company is doubling down on Stupid, Dumb, and Foolish (the law firm of the desperate and incompetent).
If they half their prices and tripled their QT, the people would buy their guitars, but they are selling to the same people that went to Woodstock. Slash is the last of the great guitarists known for their LPs, and his famous guitar was a copy too! -- Most people do not know that. This company is only a name as of late. Unless they sell to the younger people in high school, they are going to need the Ouija board to reach their customer base.
The public drives the market and selling guitars made in the USA, with parts made in the USA, for $6000.00 (plus tax) is not going to inspire the next generation of Rockers, punks, and Shredders. They cannot afford to buy a quality instrument on the money that they make flipping burgers. The reason that EDM and other prefab music is popular with the teens and college crowd is that it is cheap to produce, and kids can make it in their bedrooms or a garage for near-free. They used to play guitars in bands, but the kids have to either, buy a guitar made in Cheap-as-crap-a-stan, or save up the $7,000.00 to buy the US made LP like the one that guy that their grandparents used to listen to would play in the 1970s.
On a personal note, I play left-handed guitars because of a car crash. This company frequently throws the left-handed guitar players under the bus when it comes to selection and quality, or they charge us over $5,000.00 to have something functional. I go to other companies because I want a higher-end model with the cool features and designs that never make it to the left-handed models. The signature guitars are mostly right hand only, and I would love to switch, but my left hand is only able to strum and pick (I have to use a brace). A few years back, I worked a day job with Les Paul's granddaughter (super nice girl), and she told me that he gave me his blessing before he died because she had told him about what I was doing and liked it. This company needs to do a 180 and change their philosophy and business model.
Note: I left out the name of the company, but we know who it is, and it seems that they are up to old habits again, and I do not wish to cause trouble, but I wanted to voice what some of us are thinking.
RosamondEdge
Junior Member
- Messages
- 43
Cagey said:
That is why people and companies counter sue them.
RosamondEdge
Junior Member
- Messages
- 43
TonyFlyingSquirrel said:
That is why the builders should counter sue them
RosamondEdge
Junior Member
- Messages
- 43
Check out the luthier that they are going after now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsowLBretlk
arty07: :headbang1: :headbanging: :headbang4: :headbang5 :bass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsowLBretlk
arty07: :headbang1: :headbanging: :headbang4: :headbang5 :bass:
S
swarfrat
Guest
Okay, bashing is fun, but back to discussion.
I see a number of claims on other forums alluding to prior art on the V body design. I can see a claim that its simplicity doesn't allow differentiation. But I'm not familiar with, nor are the search engines helpful, on finding any prior examples of V body shapes before 1958. The Les Paul body shape, I think there's a strong argument for its genericity. The cutaway is the only thing I'd think that should possibly stand up in court. (not would, but should) And I'm aware that there are prior examples of the open book head stock. But I'd really like to hear about any pre-58 non-Gibson V's.
I see a number of claims on other forums alluding to prior art on the V body design. I can see a claim that its simplicity doesn't allow differentiation. But I'm not familiar with, nor are the search engines helpful, on finding any prior examples of V body shapes before 1958. The Les Paul body shape, I think there's a strong argument for its genericity. The cutaway is the only thing I'd think that should possibly stand up in court. (not would, but should) And I'm aware that there are prior examples of the open book head stock. But I'd really like to hear about any pre-58 non-Gibson V's.
Toulouse_Tuhles
Senior Member
- Messages
- 236
People tend to confuse Trademark, Patent and Copyright.
Prior art is for Patents. Trademarks are words or symbols (images, shapes, visual designs for example) that make your company and or product unique in the marketplace, and who's words or symbols differentiate your company from those belonging to others.
Such is the litmus test of "does the use of these words or symbols by entity D, cause the consumer to confuse entity B, or its products, with those of entity G?"
Then the court must also apply whether the confusion is meaningful to the market in general, or only to the most astute and informed observer.
For instance, many might think of the new Hard Rock Hotel in south Florida as a "guitar", some may consider it a Les Paul shape (sort of), but the most astute will know the exact differences between the classic Les Paul shape, and the hotel. The courts must decide where to "draw the line of confusion".
Prior art is for Patents. Trademarks are words or symbols (images, shapes, visual designs for example) that make your company and or product unique in the marketplace, and who's words or symbols differentiate your company from those belonging to others.
Such is the litmus test of "does the use of these words or symbols by entity D, cause the consumer to confuse entity B, or its products, with those of entity G?"
Then the court must also apply whether the confusion is meaningful to the market in general, or only to the most astute and informed observer.
For instance, many might think of the new Hard Rock Hotel in south Florida as a "guitar", some may consider it a Les Paul shape (sort of), but the most astute will know the exact differences between the classic Les Paul shape, and the hotel. The courts must decide where to "draw the line of confusion".
RosamondEdge
Junior Member
- Messages
- 43
swarfrat said:
Not bashing, laying down some facts, thank you very much, and feel free not to be a jerk.
S
swarfrat
Guest
Dude, chill out on the name calling. We don't play that way on this forum. Nobody said anything about you or anything you said. Various people, myself included, have been having fun at Gibson's expense. Some or it discussion of substance, some of it more knee jerk response to Gibson's move which has generated a substantial amount of animosity towards them.
RosamondEdge
Junior Member
- Messages
- 43
swarfrat said:
Cool, sorry. It's all good.
AirCap
Hero Member
- Messages
- 1,003
https://www.musicradar.com/news/gibson-is-encouraging-players-to-report-counterfeit-guitars
Scroll down near the bottom of the article and click on "exhaustive lists....". Gibson lays out exactly which parts of their design legacy they intend to protect, and it's a large list. We are talking peghead shapes, body profiles, logos of all kinds (not just guitars), etc. Worth a read, folks.
Scroll down near the bottom of the article and click on "exhaustive lists....". Gibson lays out exactly which parts of their design legacy they intend to protect, and it's a large list. We are talking peghead shapes, body profiles, logos of all kinds (not just guitars), etc. Worth a read, folks.
S
swarfrat
Guest
I wonder if they're claiming the Les Paul Log as one of their designs - if so, we should report this guy:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3vbK2GRKtY[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3vbK2GRKtY[/youtube]
mayfly
Epic Member
- Messages
- 8,734
<ring - ring> <ring - ring>
"Hello, this is the Gibson Rat Line - er, I mean, Gibson Customer Support."
"Hi! I want to report a company that's making FORGERIES of Gibson guitars!"
"Excellent Sir. Can you give me more information?"
"Sure. I bought something that was supposed to be a genuine Gibson Les Paul gold top, but it was obviously a forgery!"
"Please go on, sir."
"Well, it had this thick crappy plastic-ally finish on it that was nothing like a real one. Also, the neck warped in the first few weeks, the pickups sounded terrible, and the fretwork was bad. Even the little details were wrong - like the Gibson logo was off just a bit, the nut was crap and the binding was wrong. It even had the neck volute in the wrong place. I've owned Ibanez and Dean guitars that were way more authentic than this. I feel like I've been ripped off!!"
"Calm down sir. Can you give us information about where you bought it?"
"Yes! Some big box store that actually claimed to be a Gibson dealer! 'Guitar Center' or something. I pointed out all the proof that it was a forgery and they would not take it back!"
"... er..."
"But I managed to get to the bottom of it - I got the address of this copy manufacturer from them. They are even calling themselves 'Gibson Guitars'! Can you imagine???"
"Sir..."
"So here's the address of their so-called headquarters: Gibson Corporate 309 Plus Park Blvd. Nashville, TN 37217. Can you stop these counterfeits?"
<click>
"Hello? HELLO??"
"Hello, this is the Gibson Rat Line - er, I mean, Gibson Customer Support."
"Hi! I want to report a company that's making FORGERIES of Gibson guitars!"
"Excellent Sir. Can you give me more information?"
"Sure. I bought something that was supposed to be a genuine Gibson Les Paul gold top, but it was obviously a forgery!"
"Please go on, sir."
"Well, it had this thick crappy plastic-ally finish on it that was nothing like a real one. Also, the neck warped in the first few weeks, the pickups sounded terrible, and the fretwork was bad. Even the little details were wrong - like the Gibson logo was off just a bit, the nut was crap and the binding was wrong. It even had the neck volute in the wrong place. I've owned Ibanez and Dean guitars that were way more authentic than this. I feel like I've been ripped off!!"
"Calm down sir. Can you give us information about where you bought it?"
"Yes! Some big box store that actually claimed to be a Gibson dealer! 'Guitar Center' or something. I pointed out all the proof that it was a forgery and they would not take it back!"
"... er..."
"But I managed to get to the bottom of it - I got the address of this copy manufacturer from them. They are even calling themselves 'Gibson Guitars'! Can you imagine???"
"Sir..."
"So here's the address of their so-called headquarters: Gibson Corporate 309 Plus Park Blvd. Nashville, TN 37217. Can you stop these counterfeits?"
<click>
"Hello? HELLO??"
bagman67
Epic Member
- Messages
- 8,839
My guess is Gibson secured the right to use the Wes Montgomery and Bill Monroe names from those artists' estates in association with signature instruments. So the families, or whoever the families sold the rights to, likely approve. Or at least sold off the right to disapprove.
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