Flat frets?

[arealken]

Ok, I did a amateur fret level on a neck ( more like mowing down the frets). The high frets ( towards body) now will fret out on deep bends unless I press kinda hard. Will this issue resolve with a Crowning? Should I level some more? Asking to save an hour of slave labor crowning if it wont work right.
I bought one ogf those 100 dollar+ Stew-Mac crowning files and it worked great on another project.
Neck is Warmoth kinda a problem child pick n' pull salvage yard deal.
Thank you so much for your help, it is much appreciated.

 

[guitarstv]

Crowning improves intonation and can reduce rattles (the string against the flat fret will often rattle).  It won't help if the frets are uneven or too low.

What fretboard radius do you have?  Deep bends will fret out no matter what you do on vintage Fender necks because of the small radius.

How exactly did you level the frets?  Usually what I do is fiddle with the truss rod until the neck is perfectly flat (need a nothched ruler to check this), then find tall frets with a small flat bit of metal (ghetto fret rocker), mark off the high spots with magic marker, do a couple quick passes over those areas with a fret levelling file until the magic marker is gone, and rinse/repeat until there are no more high frets.  You really, really want to do this right.  If you take too little off, then you'll have to go back and do it again after crowning.  If you take too much off you'll have a crap playing guitar that needs to be refretted.  If the neck isn't straight to begin with, it will be much more difficult (impossible?) to get all the fret heights right.

 

[arealken]

Crowning improves intonation and can reduce rattles (the string against the flat fret will often rattle).  It won't help if the frets are uneven or too low.

What fretboard radius do you have?  Deep bends will fret out no matter what you do on vintage Fender necks because of the small radius.

How exactly did you level the frets?  Usually what I do is fiddle with the truss rod until the neck is perfectly flat (need a nothched ruler to check this), then find tall frets with a small flat bit of metal (ghetto fret rocker), mark off the high spots with magic marker, do a couple quick passes over those areas with a fret levelling file until the magic marker is gone, and rinse/repeat until there are no more high frets.  You really, really want to do this right.  If you take too little off, then you'll have to go back and do it again after crowning.  If you take too much off you'll have a crap playing guitar that needs to be refretted.  If the neck isn't straight to begin with, it will be much more difficult (impossible?) to get all the fret heights right.

Immensely helpful, thanks again. I i did a level and crown on a neck that also had been refretted, and actually was astonished at how well it turned out, it just plays so well now , thanks in large part to that foolproof z-mac fret crowning tool used in conjunction with some prior trial and error experience.
I applied the same technique on leveling as the guitar with the great results, so it should be the same or similar, and I think it might be, as you pointed out, the neck is a more curved radius, which is hard for mew personally to eyeball- wish I had a set of those stew mac radius gauges. It might well be a less flat radius, and to me it looks somewhat so, then the other neck I got great results on, and so more prone to a fret out on deep bends.
I did follow  the proper procedures for leveling with the notched straight edge, so that isn't a deep concern..but i also learned some necks have skewed frets towards the body, in which case It requires special consideration probably beyond my skills, and I  should just live with it, and its much much better than when I started out anyway and plays acceptably and pretty well as is... guess I'll just crown and hope for the best until I can get it to a pro.
I think i'll also try the fret rocker thing and see if I can find some frets I can spot level, I need to get a good e edge file, I have the fret rocker already and another guitar that plays superbly, but has a high fret up the neck that needs attention.

 

[Cagey]

A notched straightedge isn't any help for leveling frets. It's actually designed to avoid the frets, so you can see if the neck itself is straight. You generally need that to be true first before you start leveling the frets. Then, you need a leveling beam of some sort to get the tops all true, then you crown as needed and finally dress/polish to suit.

Sometimes, a crowning file is good for spot leveling. Depends how far off the fret is. They're not really designed to lower the fret, per se, as much as shape it, leaving the very top more or less untouched. Usually, leveling makes some fret tops flat, so they need recrowning. But, if it's just one or two frets, sometimes just working the thing a bit with a crowning file will take it down a couple thou. Have to be careful with that, though. You can easily end up chasing your tail.

 

[Cactus Jack]

If you mowed your frets you'll have some significant flat tops. Based on your description my gut says the neck wasn't straight before you started and you might have taken off more material than you intended. Regardless, I would say crowning is absolutely essential. I've learned the hard way that you can't pole vault the process...gotta go through every step.

If possible, please post some pics. It will definitely help if we can see what you see.

 

[arealken]

If you mowed your frets you'll have some significant flat tops. Based on your description my gut says the neck wasn't straight before you started and you might have taken off more material than you intended. Regardless, I would say crowning is absolutely essential. I've learned the hard way that you can't pole vault the process...gotta go through every step.

If possible, please post some pics. It will definitely help if we can see what you see.

Twas straight as I could get it, a flat edge did show it to be straight and flat. Anyway, I leveled it again, and re crowned, and it plays great except for one high fret on 2nd fret. I'm gonna try poppin' it down with the plastic  hammer just in case the fret may have sprouted, but then I now have a good fret file and am pretty sure I can get that fret down level if need be in that one small area of the high E. I was thinking bout the almost 150 dollar "fret Kisser" by Stew mac, but nah, I think I can do it with the fret file carefully at about considerably  over 100 dollars less.

 

[Cagey]

That 'fret kisser" is an interesting tool, but they want so much for it I can't see ever getting the time/money back.

 

[stratamania]

That 'fret kisser" is an interesting tool, but they want so much for it I can't see ever getting the time/money back.

I have one of those that I put in the shopping cart along with some other things. So far I have not had a real need to use it.

 

[I AM a robot]

I have a question, and this thread seems quite applicable. I have a newly arrived Warmoth J-bass neck and I'm checking things and creating my plan of action. I put a notched straightedge on the neck and backed off the truss rod. With all tension out of the rod, the neck still sits with the center just a bit high. It's not a lot, but the straightedge definitely sits with just a crack of daylight under the 21st fret.....0.015" feeler gage can be slipped under it.

I've rockered the frets, and a few seem to be just a tiny bit off. So it would seem that a level-dress-polish is in order.

But the neck isn't flat sitting on the workbench with no tension in the truss. Any suggestion here?

Thanks!

 

[stratamania]

If the neck is sitting with the centre of it high it has a bow in it. You need to tighten the truss rod so that it is straight before evaluating anything.

 

[I AM a robot]

If the neck is sitting with the centre of it high it has a bow in it. You need to tighten the truss rod so that it is straight before evaluating anything.

The Warmoth site shows that tightening the rod will make the middle bow further, and indeed experimenting by tightening makes the neck bow more according to my straightedge. The neck is closest to flat with no tension in the rod, but not quite flat.

To summarize:
1) Loosening the truss rod all of the way leaves the neck almost, but not quite, flat.
2) Tightening the truss rod makes the neck less flat (more bow).
3) When there is zero tension in the rod, the neck is almost flat from the neck down to about the 16th fret. Holding the straightedge down with my hand on the the 2-3 fret region, I can't get a feeler gauge under the straightedge under it anywhere from fret 1 to 15.
4) I can slip a 0.004 gauge under the straightedge at fret 16, and I can slip a 0.015" gauge under the straightedge at fret 21.

Is this normal? Does "flat" mean flat from frets 1 to 15 but maybe not higher?

 

[Cagey]

That's right - loosening the truss rod will (should) add relief (allow the neck to relax and bend forward).

If you're only seeing some clearance in one or two places, I'd suspect the neck just has a couple low spots rather than an unnatural bend.

I don't place a great deal of faith in notched straightedges. They have their place, but the thing is, you don't play the fretboard, you play the frets.

Warmoth doesn't build a a great deal of relief into their necks - not sure why. But, on a bass neck the added length should allow for a little more bend when under tension. At that point, tighten the rod to take it out if wanted/needed. (detune the strings first)

At this stage, it's a tough call to make. Since it's a new neck, you could complain and see what response you get, or you could just level the frets and call it a love story. But, once you start messing with the frets, you might affect their warranty coverage. You'd have to ask them.

 

[PhilHill]

If it was an acoustic I'd say that sounds like fall away over the area on top of the sound board, but it's not an acoustic so, never mind. :dontknow:

 

[I AM a robot]

OK, thanks for the suggestions. I think what I'll do to start is just attach the neck to the body and play it as-is. That way I'll go through the process of setting the action once to see how things look, and I can play it and see if the "uneven" frets are indeed noticeable.

The tool didn't rock a lot on the frets anyway, and if it plays fine once set up then I'll de-string it and just dress the frets.

 

[stratamania]

If the neck is sitting with the centre of it high it has a bow in it. You need to tighten the truss rod so that it is straight before evaluating anything.

The Warmoth site shows that tightening the rod will make the middle bow further, and indeed experimenting by tightening makes the neck bow more according to my straightedge. The neck is closest to flat with no tension in the rod, but not quite flat.

To summarize:
1) Loosening the truss rod all of the way leaves the neck almost, but not quite, flat.
2) Tightening the truss rod makes the neck less flat (more bow).
3) When there is zero tension in the rod, the neck is almost flat from the neck down to about the 16th fret. Holding the straightedge down with my hand on the the 2-3 fret region, I can't get a feeler gauge under the straightedge under it anywhere from fret 1 to 15.
4) I can slip a 0.004 gauge under the straightedge at fret 16, and I can slip a 0.015" gauge under the straightedge at fret 21.

Is this normal? Does "flat" mean flat from frets 1 to 15 but maybe not higher?

I mis-typed I should have typed adjust rather than tighten. But if the highest frets are just a little lower than the others that feature is often done deliberately to create what is called fall away.

It probably is worth assembling the bass so that you have some string tension on the neck for a couple of weeks to see how the neck settles prior to doing final evaluations.