Diagnosing buzz after level/recrown

[markuus99]

I did my own level and re-crown on my Wamorth Strat project and mostly the guitar is playing way better with way less buzz. However, I am having a localized buzz I'm trying to diagnose, and trying to see if I'm on the right track.

The 9th fret on the high E string has a bad buzz with a sitar effect when I dig in a bit with my pick. It's fine when I pick lightly. I checked the neck with a fret rocker and I'm not able to detect any high/low spots.

My guess here is the fret is too flat and there's not a clean takeoff point, despite my efforts to recrown. I have run into a similar sitar effect on an open string, and I corrected by fixing the nut slot to have a cleaner takeoff point.

I had to do a lot of work to remove all the file scratches and then polishing up the frets, and I'm worried I rounded/flattened the newly crowned frets too much while working up through the grits. I had made my way pretty far up in the grits before realizing I still had some deeper scratches, and I had to start the scratch removal/polishing procedure all over.

Since I'm not finding any high/low spots anywhere with a fret rocker, I'm thinking I can just repeat the recrowning procedure, right?

Any other things that might have gone wrong during my level/crown/polish process I should look at?


Here was my procedure:

• Straightened the neck, taped off the fretboard and marked top of the frets with a Sharpie
• Leveled the frets with 220-grit sandpaper on a leveling beam until flat across the fretboard
• Marked tops of frets again with Sharpie
• Started with StewMac 150-grit centered compact Z-file, using the wider side of the file only
• Followed up with 300-grit original compact Z-file, taking a few passes with either side until I had a narrow Sharpie line left
• I tried the 200/400/800 grit Stew Mac fret erasors, but didn't love those, and ended up using wet/dry sandpaper to slightly round the top and remove scratches
• I worked my up through sandpaper grits before using Micro Mesh pads to polish the frets up to a shine

The neck was unfortunately badly in need of a level and I had to take a decent amount of material off the frets to bring it to level across the neck. The neck has stainless steel 6150 frets, starting at 0.047" high. The frets are now more like 0.039", so closer to vintage fret territory.

 

[supertruper1988]

Have you changed your strings since the re-crown?

I have definitely had a bunk or worn string throw me for a loop especially if I have been tuning it up and down trying to diagnose an issue with a rattle or buzz.

Additionally, I would suggest raising that saddle if you can just a hair to see if it goes away.

 

[markuus99]

@supertruper1988 I haven’t, though the strings are pretty fresh. I have spare E strings around so I can swap it it and see.

The neck was fairly straight, but adding a bit of relief and raising the action did help a bit. The buzz gets a lot better with high E action set to ~5/64” or above (at 12th fret), but having issues on the 9th fret specifically with action any lower than that.

 

[ruscio]

Can you take a good pic of the fret to see whether it's too flat on top? I'm not sure recrowning is a good idea unless you can do it without removing anything from the top, otherwise you'll run the risk of leaving this entire fret too low.

I'm guessing that you might be pushing the limits of how low the action can get for the combination of relief, string gauge, fretting + picking style, etc. Is the action comparable to what you've had on the high E on other guitars?

 

[markuus99]

@ruscio Attached are a couple photos I was able to capture- second one viewed through a magnifying glass. (It's actually the 8th fret, not the 9th as I'd said.)

I feel like The beveled end of the fret looks a bit wonky and asymmetrical, but not sure. In the second photo I feel like I am seeing a pretty flat surface on the top of that fret. I've been having trouble eyeballing the shape on the shiny metal surface.

Action I'm going for is comparable to other guitars. Shooting for around 5/64 on low E and 4/64 on high E or thereabouts.

 

[ruscio]

Thanks, it is hard to see in a photo, probably in person, too. That might be a bit flat, so maybe you're right that it needs a little more crowning. Can you tell how this fret's shape/curvature compares to others that aren't buzzing, whether the same string at other frets or other strings at this fret?

 

[markuus99]

@ruscio Yeah having so much trouble telling visually, so hard to say. I do seem to be getting some of the same buzz on the 8th fret on the B string, one string over, but not as bad. I have a few other random spots here and there that are a little buzzy, but more within the realm of reason.

I may try to just recrown and polish this one fret under the theory that carefully filing with the z-file shouldn't lower the height of the peak of the crown. Just trying to make it skinnier/rounder.

Also tempting to redo the whole thing. If it's too flat here, I think it's probably borderline everywhere. In that case, I think I would do a couple quick passes with the leveling beam to ensure everything is super even (not removing much of any material), carefully crown down to skinny lines, and then be a bit more careful when using sandpaper to remove scratches before polishing with micromesh. Not excited about that prospect as this took me a long while to begin with, but it's all a part of the learning experience I guess.

 

[TBurst Std]

Fret work I feel is largely black magic.

 

[ruscio]

@ruscio Yeah having so much trouble telling visually, so hard to say. I do seem to be getting some of the same buzz on the 8th fret on the B string, one string over, but not as bad. I have a few other random spots here and there that are a little buzzy, but more within the realm of reason.

I may try to just recrown and polish this one fret under the theory that carefully filing with the z-file shouldn't lower the height of the peak of the crown. Just trying to make it skinnier/rounder.

Also tempting to redo the whole thing. If it's too flat here, I think it's probably borderline everywhere. In that case, I think I would do a couple quick passes with the leveling beam to ensure everything is super even (not removing much of any material), carefully crown down to skinny lines, and then be a bit more careful when using sandpaper to remove scratches before polishing with micromesh. Not excited about that prospect as this took me a long while to begin with, but it's all a part of the learning experience I guess.

That sounds like a good plan. I actually like to go pretty slow with fretwork. I'm sure pros are much more efficient than I am, but I don't do this often, only for my own guitars, and it's really satisfying to have it done well at each step. The end result of a good fret level, crown, and polish is such improved playability that it's well worth the trouble, for me at least. Good luck!

 

[markuus99]

@ruscio Thanks I appreciate it!

I have a guess of where I went wrong, but not totally sure. I'm just hoping I get better results from repeating the procedure. Guess I'll watch some more videos and see if I can pick up anything new for this time around.

 

[stratamania]

The land is too wide. (the land is what should be the narrow strip leftover showing after crowning) use a felt marker (sharpie) so you can see your progress when crowning, which I think you mentioned doing.

The Z file is a good file and should be able to get you there.

Are your frets stainless or nickel and what size were they originally, such as 61xx...? They seem as if a lot of material (probably more than needed) was taken away during levelling.

I never use for crowning 150 grit on Stainless steel, as I prefer finer toothed files. 150 doesn't cut as smooth and it is just more work in the end to take out the scratches.

In your procedure, as it is not mentioned, did you start by adjusting the truss rod to get the neck and so on as straight as possible before levelling, and how did you determine what was level or not, did you use a fret rocker etc?

 

[markuus99]

@stratamania I appreciate the reply! I also think the land is too wide the more I think about this.

I did indeed adjust the truss rod to get the neck as straight as possible before leveling, and used a notched straight edge to check.

I used a fret rocker to check for high/low frets, and used a different color Sharpie to mark the higher spots (there were quite a few). I used that to check if material was coming off where I expected during leveling. I also checked with my fret rocker throughout the process. At the end, I placed the leveling beam on the frets without sandpaper and used a tiny feeler gauge to check it was level across the whole board.

These are/were stainless steel 6150 frets. As you mention, I had to take away a lot of material to get level. I don't totally understand why it was so out of whack to begin with. I bought this neck and body in 2020 originally, and it was a process learning to assemble and set up a guitar, much less check fret work.

I previously had noticed the 17th or 18th fret was very high, and that I could slide a piece of paper under the fret. I took the guitar to a professional, who reseated that fret and did a "partial level" on the upper frets. Afterwards, the high fret was better, but the general issues I had were not solved. He told me the neck has a "ski jump" at the end of the fretboard as well, and getting it perfect could require a refret and leveling the fretboard.

However, I personally really could not detect a ski jump at the end of the fretboard. I figured if it did have a subtle one, I could level it out. When I did the level operation, I was not taking the most material from the highest frets, so that also didn't track with a ski jump. If I recall correctly, I had a few high spots in various places on the fretboard, but definitely not the like frets 20-22.


I think something was out of whack with this neck, but I obviously haven't been able to pin down what exactly. My hope has been that I had plenty of fret material to work with to level out any issues. And I did need to remove a lot of material, but I got the frets level.

I haven't started work on it yet, but I'm going to repeat the crowning process, and probably will stick with the 300-grit original Z-file, skipping the 150. I think the level just removed so much material the frets were quite square, meaning I needed to hog off a lot of material to get back to a round crown, and I think I just didn't go far enough even after a lot of filing.


I also will say I'm tempted to just to take this as a learning experience, and try another neck., but we'll see what I can do.

 

[ruscio]

This sounds like a good plan at this point. Even if you do chalk this one up to a learning experience, there's no harm in trying to recrown these frets. As @stratamania said, the key is to use a Sharpie and crown each fret until you have a very thin strip of marker left in the center. As you intend, I wouldn't use anything rougher than 300 grit, as that'll already require plenty of work to remove the scratches during the polishing process. (Ditto for the sandpaper on a leveling beam, though it sounds like you won't need to re-level and this is moot for now.) Good luck with the continued learning process, and if all goes well maybe this neck ends up in better condition than you think!

 

[stratamania]

Yes, it is worth seeing if the crown can be made better. It also could be used as a neck to have a go at replacing the frets at some point in the future if it is something you wanted to try.

 

[markuus99]

Thank you both @ruscio and @stratamania for all the guidance! Really needed a sanity check here so I appreciate all the input. This build has been such a journey, but I've learned so much.

Lesson learned on using the coarser grit file. Polishing/removing scratches was a bear, and I think that ended up being part of my problem. That process flattened the land even more. I did use the sharpie method the first time crowning too, but I think I didn't get them skinny enough.

Definitely going to repeat the recrown and think I can get great results. Might set off time this weekend for that.

Worst case, I could try a new neck and/or replace the frets. If I were ever to replace the frets, I'd probably sand in a straight radius with a radius block to ensure the fretboard surface is totally flat, and then replace the frets. Could be an interesting project in the future, or could have a pro do it. It's such a nice looking neck so would be a shame to replace, but always an option.

Thanks again! Will update once I get around to doing the recrown again.

 

[stratamania]

@markuus99 thanks and if you do replace the frets, you would need to make sure the board was level along its length regardless of its radius.

 

[markuus99]

@stratamania Yes definitely! Thinking if it weren't level along the length, sanding a straight radius would be the most feasible way of correcting that. I don't strongly prefer compound over straight radius, so I'd be fine either way. Hopefully not going to get there either way.

 

[markuus99]

@stratamania @ruscio Just wanted to say thanks again for the help here! I was able to get to a much better result.

Ultimately the issue wasn't quite what I thought it was- I realized I had been using WAY too much force with the z-file, and I had actually screwed up the crown, especially toward the edge of the fret. The land wasn't a good thin, straight line across the whole fret crown, but was almost football shaped, tapering down to almost nothing approaching the treble edge of the fret. I guess I somehow missed it last time around despite checking with a fret rocker, because the buzzy fret was indeed slightly lower than adjacent frets under the high E string, but not on other parts of the fret. It also didn't have a clean takeoff point because I'd kind of obliterated the land instead of just making it nice and skinny.

I re-leveled the frets (not removing much material this time) and then re-crowned and polished up. This time I basically just let the z-file do the work, and oh my god it was so much easier and more comfortable. Lesson learned!

Also I don't think my fret height measurements (using the StewMac calipers) were quite accurate, so I hadn't taken quite as much material off the frets as I'd originally thought. I think I'm actually sitting somewhere close to 0.040" after all the above work.

That was a bit of a frustrating process, but I'm feeling a lot more confident now and was able to address the issues I had with my first attempt.

 

[stratamania]

Good, you got it sorted out.

This time I basically just let the z-file do the work, and oh my god it was so much easier and more comfortable. Lesson learned!

This is key, let the tool do the work. And only do the work that needs to be done.

 

[DuckBaloo]

I mark the frets with a magic marker before levelling, and then again before crowning. The former makes sure I level the top of every fret (if that's what I'm going for), the latter lets me see how much of the top of the fret I leave during drowning.

We learn more from mistakes than successes!