First Warmoth Project - Flying V in Cordovan

[2ManyShoes]

I started my first Warmoth build over the weekend.  This is my third build.  (The other two were Carvins.)  Any comments or helpful suggestions much appreciated.

The parts:

Mahogany V body w/flamed maple cap
Maple neck w/Pau Ferro fingerboard (no dots, SS6100 frets)
Lindy Fralin PAF (9k) bridge
Lindy Fralin Unbucker (8k) neck
Recessed TOM bridge
Schaller locking tuners
All black hardware

The general plan is to dye the body black to bring out the grain, sand it down to bare wood, dye it cordovan, then give it about 30 coats of Tru Oil. Here's the color:  http://www.joewoodworker.com/images/transtints/cordovan.jpg

I posted a more detailed finishing schedule that includes links to the colors, etc., here:  http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=19036.0

Here's a picture Warmoth sent me of the body:



And here's how far I got over the weekend.

Step 1:  Black TransTint dye to enhance the grain:



Step 2:  Sanded back (grain looks much clearer):



Step 3:  First coat of cordovan TransTint:



This came out way too dark and overwhelmed the grain.  Also, the grain raised on the mahogany more than I expected, so I wanted to knock that back some.

Step 4:  Sand back the first coat of dye:



I didn't sand it back all the way.  Just enough so that a few coats of very diluted dye will bring it back up to where I want it. 

Step 5:  Second coat of dye (much more restrained).



The next step will be to grain-fill the mahogany back and sides.  I'm going to use Timbermate neutral, sand that down (without, I hope, sanding through the existing dye layers), then apply one more very dilute layer of dye.

Something that's bugging me is that the best the body has looked yet was the first coat of black.  For some reason, that just looked great.  I almost wish I'd stopped there.

 

[bagman67]

Okay, now that you have the color where you want it, SHELLAC is your friend.  It'll seal the wood and keep it from taking on any color from the grain filler, and make it less likely that you'll sand through when leveling the grain filler as well.  I use rattlecan Zinsser with good results.


Otherwise, nice work - I liked the black dye, too,but my guess is that once you get some clearcoat on the cordovan, it'll really pop.

 

[2ManyShoes]

Okay, now that you have the color where you want it, SHELLAC is your friend.  It'll seal the wood and keep it from taking on any color from the grain filler, and make it less likely that you'll sand through when leveling the grain filler as well.  I use rattlecan Zinsser with good results.


Otherwise, nice work - I liked the black dye, too,but my guess is that once you get some clearcoat on the cordovan, it'll really pop.

I actually do want the color a little darker--that's why I was going to grain fill now, then do one more very dilute dye coat.  My thinking was that would give me the opportunity to fix any problems that arise after I sand the grain-filler.  Do you think it would be better to get the color where I want it first, then shellac, then grain-fill?

 

[bagman67]

Yes, most definitely.  Get the color where you want it, then seal, then fill.


GIven that you didn't do a test run on scrap lumber of the same species, your next best bet is to define a finishing schedule for the real piece.  Generally you'll go this route:


- Apply stain or dye
- apply sealer (shellac, in this case, probably)
- light sanding
- grain fill
- finish sanding
- clear coat
- scuff sand
- more clear coat
- lather, rinse, repeat x10 or more (if using nitrocellulose lacquer, anyway - and if you're using nitro, also, you probably don't need to sand between coats, since the coats will melt together)
- wetsand in increasingly fine grades starting at 600
- rub out with swirl remover, then some final ploish with a product like Mequiar's Mirror Glaze (alternately, use a power buffer, but I don't have one so I use the rub/polish method)






That's all in broad strokes, but you get the idea.

 

[2ManyShoes]

There won't be a clear coat (unless you consider Tru Oil a clear coat).  I'm planning on about 25-30 coats.  Do you still recommend a sealer (shellac)?  How would the oil penetrate the wood through a layer of shellac?

 

[bagman67]

Well, Tru-Oil is not a penetrating oil like tung oil, for example - it's a varnish that polymerizes when exposed to oxygen.  Tru-oil is definitely a clear-coat in that respect.  YOu can use it as the sealer before you grain-fill instead of shellac. 


In either case, if you seal before you put your next application of dye on, the sealer will block the dye's penetration, if it's doing what it's supposed to - namely, sealing.

Now, what are you using as the vehicle for your transtint?  Water?  If so, again, don't fill until after you are done establishing the color coat.  If you apply dye after filling with Timbermate (which is water-based), you run the risk of rinsing the filler out of the pores.  I assume here that you are dying the back of the guitar as well as the front - if you're not dying the back, then seal it and fill it, and all this other crap can be ignored until you get to the part where you apply 20-30 coats of Tru-Oil.


Peace


Bagman

 

[2ManyShoes]

Thanks, Bagman, that's helpful.  I didn't know you could use Tru Oil as a sealer.  So how does this sound for the next steps:

1.  Last coat of dye
2.  One coat of Tru Oil
3.  Very light sand
4.  Grain fill
5.  Light sand
6.  30 coats of Tru Oil

Just out of curiosity, can you use shellac as your sealer if you're finishing with Tru Oil?  Seems counter-intuitive to me (but then much of this process does).

Cheers.

 

[bagman67]

You can use shellac with virtually anything - it's as close to a universally compatible coating as you're likely to find.  Very handy because it dries so fast. 


Consider maybe two or three coats of tru-oil before sealing with the timbermate, just to minimize the likelihood of sanding through the tru-oil and your color coat.

 

[fdesalvo]

First of all nice lil' shop and gorgeous hunk-a-wood.

What's your thought  process behind the use of TO on this body?  Appearance?  Ease of application/maintenance?  General disdain for spray-finishing?

 

[2ManyShoes]

First of all nice lil' shop and gorgeous hunk-a-wood.

Thanks.  The previous owners of our house expanded the mud room/laundry at the expense of the 3rd parking space in a 2+1 car garage (a 3-car garage where you park 2 deep on one side).  Anyway, they left this little nook between the new interior wall and the outside wall, and I successfully convinced my wife it was the perfect place for a little project table.  Just hung the table off the wall.  Works great, cost a couple hundred bucks total.

What's your thought  process behind the use of TO on this body?  Appearance?  Ease of application/maintenance?  General disdain for spray-finishing?

Purely ease of use.  In fact, I'd love a deep clear gloss on this one, but I don't have any of the equipment to spray.  I read a ton about finishing and decided I'm leery of cans.  So I figure wipe-on is my only option.  On my last two builds I used Minwax tung oil (which of course isn't really tung oil), with good results.

 

[fdesalvo]

Hehe, basically you told your wife it would free up her kitchen table?  :icon_biggrin:

I totally understand where you are coming from regarding spray equipment.  When I finished that neck, I had neither the time, skill, nor inclination to apply anything other than a wipe on.  The TO worked out amazingly well and it was very economical and easy to do.  Bear in mind it will amber your final color quite a bit, so in the end that may either translate to a warmer color or an odd color that doesn't compliment your base color. 

First of all nice lil' shop and gorgeous hunk-a-wood.

Thanks.  The previous owners of our house expanded the mud room/laundry at the expense of the 3rd parking space in a 2+1 car garage (a 3-car garage where you park 2 deep on one side).  Anyway, they left this little nook between the new interior wall and the outside wall, and I successfully convinced my wife it was the perfect place for a little project table.  Just hung the table off the wall.  Works great, cost a couple hundred bucks total.

What's your thought  process behind the use of TO on this body?  Appearance?  Ease of application/maintenance?  General disdain for spray-finishing?

Purely ease of use.  In fact, I'd love a deep clear gloss on this one, but I don't have any of the equipment to spray.  I read a ton about finishing and decided I'm leery of cans.  So I figure wipe-on is my only option.  On my last two builds I used Minwax tung oil (which of course isn't really tung oil), with good results.

 

[2ManyShoes]

Step 6:  Final coat of cordovan dye



Here's a close-up of the grain--as close as I can get it, anyway.  (My phone camera is cr@p.)



I actually want it slightly darker, but I'm anticipating some additional tint from the Tru Oil.

BTW, can you dissolve oil-soluble aniline dyes in Tru Oil like you can in tung oil?  I'm thinking of spiking mine with a pinch of red to make this slightly less brown-looking.  (I anticipate the Tru Oil making it more brown.)

 

[fdesalvo]

Dude, that looks excellent, and I think TO over that will be gorgeous.

I've read that you shouldn't dye the TO, but what I would do is test this by puring a small amount into a clear container, mix in your dye, and see if it separates.  Just an idea. 

Again, that body looks great.

 

[Cagey]

My understanding is you tint the reducer/thinner (mineral spirits), then use that to to tint/reduce the oil. I can't find a reference to that procedure, though. I imagine it's kinda tricky, because you're diluting the colorant in the reducer, then diluting the TO with the reducer. Gonna be tough to nail a color, so be sure to make enough to complete the job.

 

[fdesalvo]

It's a tint within a tint.  A little too profound for my feeble mind on a Thursday.  :tard:

 

[2ManyShoes]

Do people usually thin Tru Oil?  I didn't thin the first (sealer) coat.  It went on fine, but it's much gummier than tung oil.

 

[Cagey]

From what I've read, that's one of the main reasons to thin Tung Oil - it penetrates the wood better and dries/cures faster.  Tru-oil, I don't know. I'm not an oil guy. But, a great place to learn about that sort of thing is from the floor and furniture finishers as it seems they don't often like to spray anything.

 

[fdesalvo]

People don't usually thin TO. In the odd case they do, you can use mineral spirits.  This will increase drying time significantly (according to the Birchwood Casey site). 

 

[2ManyShoes]

Dude, that looks excellent, and I think TO over that will be gorgeous.

I've read that you shouldn't dye the TO, but what I would do is test this by puring a small amount into a clear container, mix in your dye, and see if it separates.  Just an idea. 

Again, that body looks great.

Thanks!

 

[2ManyShoes]

OK, been either out of town or just doing repetitive things (coats of Tru Oil) for a week, but here's an update.

Step 6:  Three sealer coats of Tru Oil

(Won't bore you with pics of that)

Step 7:  Grain fill on mahogany back and sides



I let it dry for 24 hours.

Step 8:  Sand (sand sand sand) the grain fill off

Here's the back with the grain fill sanded off.  BTW, I used Timbermate water-soluble filler, in the neutral color.



I tried hard not to get any filler on the cap, but a little got on the edges.  Talk about paranoid levels of sanding care.  I used 320 grit for the rough work on the back and sides, then moved to 600.  I used only 600 on the cap.



What a difference turning off the flash makes.  This is the same picture five seconds later without the flash.



Step 9:  A naptha rubdown and another round of sealing before the second grain-fill



Because the cap isn't getting grain filled, this makes four coats of oil on it.  It's starting to get a tiny bit glossy.

I just realized I haven't posted any pics of the back in quite a while.  Here's what it looks like now:



I tried like hell not to sand through the cordovan dye, and I was pretty sure I hadn't, but with the oil on it definitely looks lighter to me now.

Observations/Questions

1.  This is my first time working with Tru Oil.  It's much gummier than tung oil and dries unevenly.  It looks great from most angles when dry, but even after three coats, there are gummy-looking spots (although they really are dry), glossy spots, and odd swirl patterns that I have no idea about.  I sanded very carefully to 600 grit, with the grain, before the oil.  I imagine it's just uneven absorption of the oil.  I'm hoping that after 30 coats it evens out.  Do most people sand between coats of TO?

2.  It is miserably hard to sand the grain filler off without sanding through the color coat, even with three coats of Tru Oil as a sealer.  Is there a trick to that?  I'm planning on three more coats of sealer before the second (and I hope last) grain fill because I'm already very worried about sanding through the color.