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EL34s vs 6L6s

The TungSols are Chinese tubes, and there are no current production Mullard tubes in existence - haven't been in over 30 years, reissued or otherwise. On top of that, the ones built in the '60s - '70s weren't anything to write home about, so even NOS parts are of questionable value unless there's some provenance of age. Even then, I'd be suspicious, because now you're talking about a vacuum tube that's over 40 years old. How good is the vacuum going to be? What kind of oxidization has occurred internally?

The whole cork-sniffing thing with tubes just makes me laugh.
 
Cagey, I thought saying Mullard and Tungsol reissues was pretty clear.  Your points about variability of tubes (new and old) are correct, that's why I was trying to steer the OP to a small change (swap the V1 preamp tube) that might make the most impact. Really the only way to know is to try and see how it sounds. Spending a bunch of money on new output tubes can be an expensive gamble that ends up with a very subtle difference in tone.  I'm curious to hear what specific suggestions you have.
 
Mullard doesn't even exist - how can they reissue anything? Besides, for given designation such as 12AX7, we're talking about a performance spec. Didn't matter who made it, it was a 12AX7. That one seems better than another can be put down to the inherent variability of tubes in general. It's just the nature of the beast. Miniscule differences in manufacturing tolerance can make differences large enough to be measurable or even audible. So, there's no such thing as a "reissue". That's a marketing term that resonates with some people and eases their wallets open faster, that's all. Anybody selling a "Mullard reissue" is just selling a Sovtek or TungSol that's been private-labeled and marketed as something unobtainable to take advantage of an unsophisticated market.

You're correct in making small, localized changes, though. Oddly enough, sometimes just rearranging the existing tubes can be beneficial for all the reasons already mentioned. Tubes are inconsistent, in both good and bad ways. What might make for a bum 1st stage preamp tube might make a great phase inverter, or the reverb/tremolo stages. In fact, in emergencies, we used to pull the trem tube in old Fenders equipped with them to replace a gain stage tube that had gone microphonic, since it's easier to live without tremolo than it is to live without an amp altogether.
 
Right, but it is as I said - they're just re-labeling what they already make to draw a higher price, and whoever still owns the Mullard name gets a free royalty check every month for doing nothing.

There was a time when Mullards were The Tube To Have, but that was only because they had dependable yields, not because they were any better than anything else. If you bought a gross of 6L6s, it was quite likely you could use the whole box. That translated into resellers saying "these are the best" to anyone who asked. That wasn't true of some brands. Tubes are like lamps - there's an expected amount of shrinkage due to fragility and out-of-box failure, and if you're an authorized distributor you just give those back to the wholesaler for replacement.

I saw a video some time back about Behringer's or Bugera's amp assembly line, and they showed where they have to test every tube before it's installed because the yields are so poor. They get about a 25% pass rate, which means that even Bugera rejects 75% of the tubes they get. That's pitiful. And if Internet reports are to be believed, you're still in for a tube replacement not too long after you buy one of their amps. I know it happened to me. I've had several of their amps, but resold them quickly (they were speculative buys) and the only one I kept was a little V5. Power tube (EL84) went microphonic in less than a year. It's a cheap tube, but still. Seems a bit premature. And I'm to believe a 30 year old tube would be better?
 
Cagey said:
Right, but it is as I said - they're just re-labeling what they already make to draw a higher price, and whoever still owns the Mullard name gets a free royalty check every month for doing nothing.
Click to expand...

No, it's not just a rebadging, it is in fact a different tube design. If you visually compare the Mullard 12AX7 reissues to other Sovteks it's obvious that they are not the same.
 
They can make them shaped like Crazy Straws full of pipe cleaners, but it has to adhere to the 12AX7 performance specification or they can't call it that.
 
I don't have much to say about which tube is which. But I do have some experience with a couple models that may be helpful.

Something to remember is that each 12AX7 is actually two triodes in the same case. They do different things and may be at very different stages in the signal path. Find your amp's user manual and figure out which ones do what.

As Patrick said, I've found Tung Sols (new, I don't bother buying NOS) to be bright, tight, detailed, and percussive. These are pretty good for a more precise metal tone. I've got one of these in position one on my amp, handling the input stage and the first distortion stage. Having a treble emphasis early on keeps things clear and lessens flub. More bass later on will help you get a deep bass sound. In general. As always, YMMV. These tubes have pretty high gain and will drive stuff well.

I've got some old Tungscram ECC82s (same thing as 12AU7 I think. Lower gain) from the 70's. I picked a box of 40 up at a flea market for $8. I love living in Europe. I've been using these in the second position on my amp, serving the second distortion stage. As I mentioned earlier, I have to max out the gain to get the distortion I used to get at half but it's a lot more usable. I believe that the lower gain a preamp tube is the crunchier its breakup tends to be. Less creamy, which is better for tighter tone. The lower gain tubes compress a lot less and add more sparkley gain. More Mesaish and less like a pummled marshall, if I had to put it in brandname terms. Unless you'd already maxing out your gain control I'd give a lower gain tube a try somewhere in the middle of your preamp. I remember reading somewhere that Mike Soldano's big innovation was using more tubes to get distortion having each one contribute less instead of boosting the crap out of a single tube. That's the idea with a lower gain tube. You have to turn the drive up higher but you're less likely to pummel and squash a single tube stage. YMMV.
Note: I had the metalhead guitar player in my band swap out his second stage tube with one of these and I liked the sound way better. He liked the new punch his amp took on. In the end though, he descended into gainy anarchy and went back with the stock Sovteks. He doesn't sit as clear in our mix anymore and I'm not as impressed with his tone. Whatever he wants, though.

My amp shipped with Sovtek 12AX7LPSs. I like these. They're a little darker, maybe more balanced. If your amp is too bright and... chimy? or sparkly, I'd try one of these somewhere towards the end of your preamp. They're pretty high gain and sound good. They might be less metal than the Tung Sols. Obviously more metal than the Tungsrams but that's just because they're higher gain. These are a good option. I've got this as my phase splitter. Not for any real reason but it's sounding good with the configuration I've got now.

I've tried a couple Sovtek 12AX7WBs and didn't like them. Not terrible but why use those when you could use something better that sounds the same? Getting some 12AX7LPSs instead would be my suggestion.

I've got one or two Chinese-made 12AX7s. I think they're basically unlabled. They're cheap. They're very bright and have decently high gain. I think these might get you an over-stereotypical sound in some amps. I wouldn't necessarily suggest them but it may not be a bad idea to try one somewhere because unlike the Sovtek 12AX7WA or WB it doesn't sound like a crappy version of another tube but has its own gained-out treble sound. I didn't mess much with this one so I may not have hit the nail on the head but these were my impressions. I might try this in position one because it's pretty bright.

I hope this is somewhat helpful. I've heard good thinks about JJs as aggressive, balanced (maybe darker) tubes. Probably in the same vein as the Sovtek LPS tubes. I've yet to try them in my amp but they're reviewed so well I don't think you can go wrong.

http://thetubestore.com/12ax7review.html This resource may be helpful. For the most part I agreed with what they said about the tubes, hence the similarity in our reviews.
 
I'll have to check the owner's info to see if there's a schematic of the head. 

As for all of the different tubes, I'm totally confused between a Tungsol and this, that, and the other.  Are these all manufacturers of 12AX7s and one company's 12AX7 sounds different from another's?  Can I mix/match tubes from different manufacturers and what-not?
 
The 12AX7's are all the same to the amp.  If one is supposed to be there at V1 or V2 or v3 then any brand will do.  They won't sound the same, but they will do.  The differences that go into each brand can be heard, to greater or lesser extent.  The ones I listed are the ones that behave the way I listed for me.  I have found that the pre tubes will not change the amps sound as drastically as changing the output style of tube.  If the amp takes 6L6's and EL34's, then the 6L6's will tighten up the amp a lot more than the pre tubes.  The pre tubes will then refine that further.  They sort of act as an filter in the eq section, and words like darker or brighter, more air, things like that come to mind.
Patrick

 
What Patrick said. Most of the stuff I listed is from different brands, the brands being Tung Sol, Sovtek, Tungsram, and Shugaguang (the Chinese brand). Some brands have a couple different models (Sovtek has the WA, WB, and LPS models). The sneaky bit is that there are only three factories still running: on in Russia, one in China, and one in the Czech Republic. All tubes nowadays are made in one of those three factories and mostly by the same company.

BUT, there are a bunch of different designs for this one tube. They all function the exact same but have slightly different characters to their sounds (like I mentioned in my earlier post). So just because Tung Sol and Sovtek tubes are made in the same factory does NOT mean they are all the same.

That being said, there are a couple brands like Ruby and Groove Tubes that don't own a factory but rather relabel other guys' tubes as their own and sell them for an upcharge. It's all very confusing at first. But there are reviews you can find easily enough that can be helpful for identifying whether a certain tube is a new model or just a relabel of something that you can get for cheaper.

Also, there's a thing called NOS meaning New Old Stock. This is based on the belief that tubes made 30-40 years ago are objectively better. So people are searching out remaining tubes from this era and using them. They're rare and expensive. Not everyone is convinced they sound any better. So I'd suggest sticking to new tubes that you know will work and just getting good ones from there.

Any kind of 12AX7 tube will work with other ones. Additionally, there's a whole family of similar tubes (12AX7, 12AU7, 12AY7, the list goes on). Mostly they're the exact same tubes but designed for varying amounts of gain. Mixing and matching is a great part about having a tube amp: you can get all kinds of tone variations by changing tubes around. Even changing the order you've got your tubes in makes a big difference. Because preamp tubes generally only cost between $10 and $20 this is a very cheap way to change the way your amp sounds and hopefully improve it.
 
Patrick from Davis said:
The 12AX7's are all the same to the amp.  It one is supposed to be there at V1 or V2 or v3 then any brand will do.  They won't sound the same, but they will do.  The differences that go into each brand can be heard, to greater or lesser extent.  The ones I listed are the ones that behave the way I listed for me.  I have found that the pre tubes will not change the amps sound as drastically as changing the output style of tube.  If the amp takes 6L6's and EL34's, then the 6L6's will tighten up the amp a lot more than the pre tubes.  The pre tubes will then refine that further.  They sort of act as an filter in the eq section, and words like darker or brighter, more air, things like that come to mind.
Patrick
Click to expand...

Ah, okay.  I see what you're sayin'.  What about with overtones and stuff, or factors as such really depend on the manufacturer and how the electronics are designed?
 
What most folks who play with different preamp tubes do is just identify which ones you already have in your amp(s), then buy 3 or 4 different ones to swap around.

In terms of sound, the most important preamp tube is the first one (closest to the input, typically located furthest from the power tubes).

If it's a modern high gain amp with 4 or more preamp tubes, you can also try replacing the second tube with a lower gain tube that can be substituted for a 12ax7 (12ay7, 12au7 or 5751 tubes are common ones). This tube is there just to add cascaded gain/distortion - usually it's the second tube, but this is where a schematic is helpful (or look on a forum that caters to your type of amp). You'll get less preamp gain/distortion this way. But if you didn't have your preamp gain cranked almost all the way up to begin with, you get a much more responsive gain control (when you turn the gain knob, it changes more slowly, so it's much easier to adjust and dial in just the right amount of gain).
 
Daze of October said:
As for all of the different tubes, I'm totally confused between a Tungsol and this, that, and the other.  Are these all manufacturers of 12AX7s and one company's 12AX7 sounds different from another's?  Can I mix/match tubes from different manufacturers and what-not?
Click to expand...

No, they're not all manufacturers of 12AX7s; there are only 2 or 3 manufacturers of ALL new tubes on Earth. One is in China, and one or two are in the former Soviet Union. Every brand of tube you see comes from one of those 2 or 3 places, no matter what you see stamped on the tube.

Thing is, they're made on ancient machinery by low-paid unmotivated political slaves, so while tubes have always been inconsistent to start with even in the best of times, the problem is much worse now than it's ever been. Some companies who sell these tubes will either buy them pre-screened from one of those places, or screen them themselves to insure some level of performance and weed out the many bad ones. Of course, the more testing they do, the more the parts will cost. So, from that standpoint, it's possible you can get tubes that behave in a predictable way, or have some assurance of lifespan. But, you're gonna pay for it.

You can buy old tubes that haven't been used (NOS), but I'm suspicious of those claims as well. It almost seems like the vintage guitar market, where there are more vintage guitars for sale today than were ever manufactured in the first place.
 
What Cagey said is correct, there are only three big factories for tubes in the world.  There are some tiny places, but the prices are prohibitive.  However, among the brands and different flavors of the 12AX7 there are different pieces on the inside.  They behave electrically the same, but the different geometries and distances specified for that model make them have more of, "this or that."  They are not the most consistent thing on the planet, but if you like a sound of one model/brand, it is more likely to reproduce it for you.  Will you win the lottery of tone with just one?  Probably not.  But you can reasonably narrow down your pool of options by reading up, a lot, and buying a model that is geared more for your expectations.  When I say a lot, it is because everyone has an opinion, the amps they use the tubes in are not the same, and there is a lot of Lord of the Rings, "This brand rules them all." speak out there.  But, you do see trends.
Patrick

 
Cagey said:
Yes. But, don't expect miracles. Tubes are sorta like bacon
Click to expand...

Lol, brother, ask yourself if you've ever had bad bacon.  Even stale bacon rocks and folks put it on their salads.  I wish my amp sounded like bacon.  :party07:
 
Oh, I know. I'm not disparaging tubes or bacon. And in fact, that's why I picked bacon for the analogy. It's always good. But, inconsistently so.
 
First of all, "Tone King" is an idiot.

Now that we got that out of the way, swapping from EL-34s to 6L6 will definitely produce a noticeable change in the tone.

You say you're looking for a "dark" tone. Well, EL-34s produce a darker tone than 6L6s, along with a "snarling midrange".  The 6L6 is more "glassy" sounding, with a tighter low-end, which many think is good for higher preamp distortion sounds.

I like both tube types, however I have always used EL-34s.  The 6CA7 is like a cross between a EL-34 and a 6L6 tone-wise, and has the same pin configuration as the EL-34.
 
Street Avenger said:
First of all, "Tone King" is an idiot.

Now that we got that out of the way, swapping from EL-34s to 6L6 will definitely produce a noticeable change in the tone.

You say you're looking for a "dark" tone. Well, EL-34s produce a darker tone than 6L6s, along with a "snarling midrange".  The 6L6 is more "glassy" sounding, with a tighter low-end, which many think is good for higher preamp distortion sounds.

I like both tube types, however I have always used EL-34s.  The 6CA7 is like a cross between a EL-34 and a 6L6 tone-wise, and has the same pin configuration as the EL-34.
Click to expand...

I find "Tone King's" videos to be much more informative than most.  I'm yet to find someone else on YouBoob that posts better info.  If you know of anyone who does, lemme know!
 
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