EL34s vs 6L6s

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Now, before anyone defends their "tube of choice" and this turns into another one of those storied debates akin to "Steelers vs. Ravens," this is actually more or less a thread regarding their sound qualities, NOT which is better and which is worse.

Currently I have EL34s and 12AX7s in my Peavey 3120.  Prior to owning my Peavey 3120, I had a Randall RT100H, which had 6L6s and 12AX7s.  While I love the sound of my Peavey, something's lacking that was not lacking with the Randall; OVERTONES.  While the Peavey certainly belts out the power, I feel like the Randall had a thicker tone when it came to a deep distortion.

What I'm after is more of a deep, dark tone with some more "thrum" or "vibration."  I prefer a more "American" tone, sort of in the same fashion as say, Exodus's "Fabulous Disaster" record or Pantera's "Cowboys From Hell" record.  While I'm not looking to replicate that sound, that's just the type of sound I like and what I'm using as an example.

So, how much of a difference would swapping tubes make?  I've seen one of those 'Tone King" videos where he tests all of them but I didn't really notice a significant difference.

Right now, I've sort of started "upgrading" my sound, and the biggest "importance" to me is picking up some overtone.  Here's what I'm using...

Peavey 120w 3120 Head
Avatar Cabinet (2 Celestion Vintage 30s, 2 Celestion K100s)
Boss RV-5 Reverb pedal
Boss CH-1 Super Chorus pedal

I also have a Boss DS-1 Super Distortion pedal but I'm not using it with my rig.

 

[thebutcher85]

dude, BEFORE you try any tube swaps, try boosting your dirty sound with on OD pedal, I'd recommend the MXR Wylde overdrive, and the Digitech Bad Monkey, those should get you the edge and overtones you're looking for!

 

[elfro89]

You can easily achieve that with both tube types. There isn't really a rule of thumb regarding their sound type, but el34s make it into the more boutique style amps and generally have a much more more noticeable mid range and can make a nice muddy warm distortion, kind of like a Van Haleny quality if really pushed, think of that moany guitar sound you hear in the breakdown of panama, that moany sound has el34 written all over it. 6l6's is more what you will find in higher gain amps and have less of a moany mid and more of a sharper tighter high and low end presence (really really really does depend on the amp)

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

You can easily achieve that with both tube types. There isn't really a rule of thumb regarding their sound type, but el34s make it into the more boutique style amps and generally have a much more more noticeable mid range and can make a nice muddy warm distortion, kind of like a Van Haleny quality if really pushed, think of that moany guitar sound you hear in the breakdown of panama, that moany sound has el34 written all over it. 6l6's is more what you will find in higher gain amps and have less of a moany mid and more of a sharper tighter high and low end presence (really really really does depend on the amp)

Well, I'm most certainly a fan of a lot of gain.  IMO, the more, the merrier...but not a muddy type of gain. 

dude, BEFORE you try any tube swaps, try boosting your dirty sound with on OD pedal, I'd recommend the MXR Wylde overdrive, and the Digitech Bad Monkey, those should get you the edge and overtones you're looking for!

Well, I'm not a big fan of Zakk Wylde's tone.  Sure, it's dark and it sounds cool, but I'm just not into the whole idea of chasing someone else's tone.  I'd probably rather check out the Bad Monkey.  How'bout Boss?  Do they make a good pedal that would work for this?  I'm a bit partial to Boss, as I seem to have bad luck with every pedal manufacturer except Boss.

 

[Johnfv]

I can say this: I have an early 90s Dual Rectifier and I much prefer it with EL34 tubes. That said, output tube differences can be subtle and I've been able to get very satisfactory tones from EL34, 6L6, 6V6, EL84 (and even 6P3S) tubes.  I think the EL84 is the one with the most distinctive tone. YMMV...

 

[thebutcher85]

You can easily achieve that with both tube types. There isn't really a rule of thumb regarding their sound type, but el34s make it into the more boutique style amps and generally have a much more more noticeable mid range and can make a nice muddy warm distortion, kind of like a Van Haleny quality if really pushed, think of that moany guitar sound you hear in the breakdown of panama, that moany sound has el34 written all over it. 6l6's is more what you will find in higher gain amps and have less of a moany mid and more of a sharper tighter high and low end presence (really really really does depend on the amp)

Well, I'm most certainly a fan of a lot of gain.  IMO, the more, the merrier...but not a muddy type of gain. 

dude, BEFORE you try any tube swaps, try boosting your dirty sound with on OD pedal, I'd recommend the MXR Wylde overdrive, and the Digitech Bad Monkey, those should get you the edge and overtones you're looking for!

Well, I'm not a big fan of Zakk Wylde's tone.  Sure, it's dark and it sounds cool, but I'm just not into the whole idea of chasing someone else's tone.  I'd probably rather check out the Bad Monkey.  How'bout Boss?  Do they make a good pedal that would work for this?  I'm a bit partial to Boss, as I seem to have bad luck with every pedal manufacturer except Boss.

well I don't like Zakk Wylde at all, and could care even less for trying to achieve "his tone" but it's a great pedal, and it kicks @$$ haha! Don't be a brand snob, just get yourself any tube-screamer-ish Overdrive pedal, turn the gain to zero, set the level and tone controls to taste, and boost the crap outta your amp, it should help you get the "overtones" you're looking for (turning up your tube amp loud enough to get power-tube crunch is REALLY where the good overtones lie, but I've found boosting with an OD pedal really helps, besides, look at all the pros that do it and have done so for years)

oh and yes, Boss does make an overdrive pedal, although I didn't like it at all when I tried it (I liked the Keeley modded version of it though, it was still "meh" though)
http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=133&ParentId=254

 

[elfro89]

Yeah, when it comes to gain I almost always put a overdrive in front of it, it just adds that little bit extra to bring out the tone. I have the zakk wylde overdrive and its amazing, totally swear by it like, having said that I really want a blackstar overdrive pedal. Those things are in a class all of their own.

 

[thebutcher85]

Yeah, when it comes to gain I almost always put a overdrive in front of it, it just adds that little bit extra to bring out the tone. I have the zakk wylde overdrive and its amazing, totally swear by it like, having said that I really want a blackstar overdrive pedal. Those things are in a class all of their own.

yeah I've tried a bunch of the blackstar ones, they're great pedals.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

I haven't seen the Blackstars.  I'll have to check'em out!

 

[Patrick from Davis]

I have two high gain styled amps, with different output sections.  The Uberschall has EL34's (I moved to KT77's) and the Savage has KT88's.  The EL34 output section has more fuzz to it.  My thoughts are when pushed, they tend to break up a bit as well as the preamp tube distortion.  The KT88's are like 6550's and tend to be quite edgy, with little power amp distortion.  They tend to reproduce what the preamp does quite precisely, for more of a modern metal sound.  The Uberschall will make more of the Alice in Chains wall of distortion.  But, more importantly is that the 6L6's will be more modern metal sounding than the EL34's classic rock.  It is a terrible thing to label the tubes like that, because the amp can emphasize this or not.  But that is the general description of the differences in sound.
Patrick

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

I have two high gain styled amps, with different output sections.  The Uberschall has EL34's (I moved to KT77's) and the Savage has KT88's.  The EL34 output section has more fuzz to it.  My thoughts are when pushed, they tend to break up a bit as well as the preamp tube distortion.  The KT88's are like 6550's and tend to be quite edgy, with little power amp distortion.  They tend to reproduce what the preamp does quite precisely, for more of a modern metal sound.  The Uberschall will make more of the Alice in Chains wall of distortion.  But, more importantly is that the 6L6's will be more modern metal sounding than the EL34's classic rock.  It is a terrible thing to label the tubes like that, because the amp can emphasize this or not.  But that is the general description of the differences in sound.
Patrick

I definitely wanna go with a more modern Metal sound than the "British" sound.  Someone on another forum suggested KT77s.  Would these work?  I know the head can accept either EL34s or 6L6s but there's nothing mentioned about KT77s or KT88s.

 

[pabloman]

You'll just have a valve amp instead of a tube amp :icon_jokercolor:

 

[Justinginn]

KT77s are a drop-in replacement for EL34s that tend to sound a little more like 6L6s. Tighter, punchier, less poweramp distortion. KT88s are higher-wattage tubes that oftentimes need bigger transformers than 6l6s and El34s. Making an amp run on KT88s can involve more work than just swapping the tubes and some amps don't have the iron to make it work. If you're really interested in that, I'm sure there are others who understand the process of swapping over better and can help explain.

I just ordered a set of JJ KT77s to put in an amp that's been running on El34s. I decided to make the switch because my new band plays tighter metal and post-grunge music that my old tubes sounded farty on. I'll tell you how the new ones sound when I get them.

That being said, the best thing I ever did for my high gain sound was replacing my second 12AX7 in the preamp with a 12AY7 (lower gain). Now I run the gain knob a lot higher but it seems to me that by nature of what they are, lower gain tubes are tighter and punchier, at least in combination with higher gain tubes. You'll get less compression if  you make the swap but stuff will jump out like it didn't used to. I'd recommend trying out some different preamp tubes in different configurations but YMMV.

 

[Johnfv]

...I'd recommend trying out some different preamp tubes in different configurations but YMMV.

+1 Changing preamp tubes will likely have a more noticeable effect...

 

[fdesalvo]

Lol, +1 for bringing up Fabulous Disaster tone.  Evvvrybody's doin' the toxic waltz!  See also, Years of Decay, Overkill.  Exodus used modded Marshalls and jackson/ibanez guitars loaded with EMGs. 

Between the two amps you are using, the biggest difference in tone stems from the two different preamp topologies, rather than the power sections (unless you are overdriving these tubes).  You are hearing two different styles of gain structuring. 

Without digging into schematics, I can't tell you which of your amps has or had more gain stages than the other.  I also don't know where your tone stack (EQ) is inserted or what style of phase inverter it's running - all preamp related.  If you are looking for more overtones, you can experiment with a different set of preamp tubes, or a boost pedal as mentioned prior. 

Changing the power tubes from EL34s to KT77s will give you more clean headroom, pushing the appearance of power tube saturation and the harmonics that accompany them farther back along the volume dial.  Like Justinginn mentioned, switching to KT88s would be more taxing on your power transformer because these tubes draw more current.  Your transformer may or may not be able to handle that.  But, just as with the KT77s, you are going to do nothing more than stiffen up your power section and in fact, could end up sterilizing your tone, as KT88s have HUGE clean headroom - bye-bye dynamics and the chewy EL34 goodness. 

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Okay, so the preamp tubes are the 12AX7s, correct?  Being new to this whole thing, I'm not clear on what the preamp tubes do and what the power section tubes do.  Can some explain?

 

[Patrick from Davis]

The signal coming out of your guitar is not very strong.  The first preamp tube increases this signal.  After that, you can have another that increases it so much that the next tube it encounters cannot reproduce it correctly.  The peaks and valleys are too far apart, so it "clips" them.  It flattens then at the point in which you have reached it's dynamic limit.  In an amp this is a bit more complex, but that is how you get distortion/overdrive.  The wave has been distorted, it is not the same as the original one.  You have overdriven the amp, or driven a signal that is hot enough that it cannot be reproduced.

The power section has tubes as well.  There are lots of configurations, but the idea is basically the same.  You have your master volume knob metering out how much signal goes to the power tubes.  If the preamp has already distorted the signal, it will go to the power tubes like this and give you a distortion sound.  If you just send a very hot signal to the power tubes, they will also distort in the same manner at some point.  If you distort a distorted signal, it gets muddier.  This can be cool sounding.  Very classic rock, and more fuzz to it.  Metal players want more precision over things because of the speed of the notes.  Fuzzy makes it hard to discern the fast stuff.  So they tend to like the power section free of distortion and the pre section distorted.  One level of distortion makes it easier to get the fast stuff out, two not so much.  This is not entirely true, but for this discussion it will do.

So what does it all mean.  Pre distortion, is done with the preamp tubes.  12AX7's have a lot of amping ability, so the next stage of the pre amp will clip (Gain, more gain).  Power distortion is when you push the power section hard enough (loud, very loud) to distort.  Makes modern metal difficult, but classic rock sounds great.  What tubes you have in the power section will determine how easy it is to get them to distort.  6550 are very difficult to distort, EL34's are much easier.  6L6's are harder t distort than EL34's.  Most metaller amps will have 6L6's or 6550's in them.  However, a lot also use EL34's.  The KT77 is an EL34 analog.  There is a lot of history about which side of the Atlantic the tubes were developed on, and that is something for Wikipedia.  I have the KT77's and they are a tighter sound than the EL34.

Different brands, and models of pre tubes will be tighter or looser as well.  I like the Tung Sol 12AX7's (Not the NOS ones, the repro's) for metal.  They are quite precise, not as fuzzy.  The Repro Mullards are much warmer and will fuzz up a bit more.  I put them in my vintage clone amps for more of that vibe.

Clear as mud, right?
Patrick

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

The signal coming out of your guitar is not very strong.  The first preamp tube increases this signal.  After that, you can have another that increases it so much that the next tube it encounters cannot reproduce it correctly.  The peaks and valleys are too far apart, so it "clips" them.  It flattens then at the point in which you have reached it's dynamic limit.  In an amp this is a bit more complex, but that is how you get distortion/overdrive.  The wave has been distorted, it is not the same as the original one.  You have overdriven the amp, or driven a signal that is hot enough that it cannot be reproduced.

The power section has tubes as well.  There are lots of configurations, but the idea is basically the same.  You have your master volume knob metering out how much signal goes to the power tubes.  If the preamp has already distorted the signal, it will go to the power tubes like this and give you a distortion sound.  If you just send a very hot signal to the power tubes, they will also distort in the same manner at some point.  If you distort a distorted signal, it gets muddier.  This can be cool sounding.  Very classic rock, and more fuzz to it.  Metal players want more precision over things because of the speed of the notes.  Fuzzy makes it hard to discern the fast stuff.  So they tend to like the power section free of distortion and the pre section distorted.  One level of distortion makes it easier to get the fast stuff out, two not so much.  This is not entirely true, but for this discussion it will do.

So what does it all mean.  Pre distortion, is done with the preamp tubes.  12AX7's have a lot of amping ability, so the next stage of the pre amp will clip (Gain, more gain).  Power distortion is when you push the power section hard enough (loud, very loud) to distort.  Makes modern metal difficult, but classic rock sounds great.  What tubes you have in the power section will determine how easy it is to get them to distort.  6550 are very difficult to distort, EL34's are much easier.  6L6's are harder t distort than EL34's.  Most metaller amps will have 6L6's or 6550's in them.  However, a lot also use EL34's.  The KT77 is an EL34 analog.  There is a lot of history about which side of the Atlantic the tubes were developed on, and that is something for Wikipedia.  I have the KT77's and they are a tighter sound than the EL34.

Different brands, and models of pre tubes will be tighter or looser as well.  I like the Tung Sol 12AX7's (Not the NOS ones, the repro's) for metal.  They are quite precise, not as fuzzy.  The Repro Mullards are much warmer and will fuzz up a bit more.  I put them in my vintage clone amps for more of that vibe.

Clear as mud, right?
Patrick

Thanks for the explanation.  I sort of get it. 

Basically, I would want to replace my preamp tubes, which will make the quick-picking notes sound more defined while still retaining its distortion, correct?  So the main issue is that I would actually want to replace the preamp 12AX7s, not the EL34s...

 

[Cagey]

Yes. But, don't expect miracles. Tubes are sorta like bacon, in that they're all good, but they're inconsistent. One batch is the best you ever had, while the next will be merely acceptable for what it is. For a given design, they're all basically the same, but there are subtle differences between them that can lead you to believe things that aren't necessarily true, such as the idea that a JJ 12AX7 is better than Ruby which is worse than a Groove Tube which is better than a NOS Mullard which is the same as an ECG83. With any given handful of those tubes, all, none, or a mixture of parts of that statement can be true. There are only two or three manufacturers of tubes left in the world, as opposed to hundreds brands and thousands of suppiers. What does that tell you? That's the frustration of tube amps.

 

[Johnfv]

Do you have a tube layout chart for your amp? I'm not familiar with the specifics on your amp but typically the tube that makes the most difference in your tone is the V1 preamp tube.  First step is look at what is there now - likely a Chinese made 12AX7 (not necessarily a bad thing). For CP (current production) tubes the Tungsol and Mullard reissues previously mentioned are some of the best IMO.