Digidesign Eleven Rack unit
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Volitions Advocate
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Now that I'm in this new digital audio program at my university I get the chance to talk to a lot of pro's about this kind of thing. t00b vs. modeler aside... its from digidesign, which means the fight here is probably not about the tube snobs.. its about the pro-tools snobs. I haven't understood this aura of heavenly magnificence that is surrounding pro-tools in the minds of many recording enthusiasts.
This thing would be great if you're a hardcore pro tools user. (which means you have no limits to how much money you will spend on recording gear) But personally I would challenge anybody to tell me that I cannot make just as good a recording using my own modeler and cubase or nuendo rather than an eleven rack in some overpriced and self righteous (did I mention over priced?) pro tools rig.
I feel like this fight is kind of along the same lines as much of my nerd-kin is having against big software companies regarding draconian DRM on their software. Digidesign does this by severely limiting what your software can do without you buying exorbitant amounts of hardware, and somehow it works for them because the hardcore users get this addiction where they need more. one of my professors told me that he can't seem to stop. that his pro tools rig Just This Year has grown by about $80K. and he can do just as much with Logic.... which he paid 500 bucks for.
[/rant]
that didn't stop me from entering the contest to win one.
This thing would be great if you're a hardcore pro tools user. (which means you have no limits to how much money you will spend on recording gear) But personally I would challenge anybody to tell me that I cannot make just as good a recording using my own modeler and cubase or nuendo rather than an eleven rack in some overpriced and self righteous (did I mention over priced?) pro tools rig.
I feel like this fight is kind of along the same lines as much of my nerd-kin is having against big software companies regarding draconian DRM on their software. Digidesign does this by severely limiting what your software can do without you buying exorbitant amounts of hardware, and somehow it works for them because the hardcore users get this addiction where they need more. one of my professors told me that he can't seem to stop. that his pro tools rig Just This Year has grown by about $80K. and he can do just as much with Logic.... which he paid 500 bucks for.
[/rant]
that didn't stop me from entering the contest to win one.
bpmorton777
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the few times that I was forced to use protools I found the UI lacking and you are right, Volitions, I can do the same stuff on Logic or Reason/Record.
about the tube/modeler debate: have you ever noticed that a live band sounds so much different than a recording of the same performance? If Im walking by some guy's house and notice that they are playing a drum kit in the garage I CAN tell that it is a drum kit and not a recording of some guy playing drums. I think this is what is hapening a lot with the folks that complain about the sound of modelers. They buy a modeler, plug some headphones into it, and then decide that it doesnt sound anything like an amplifier set up in front of them playing at volume. the modelers are trying to replicate a recorded sound. I think that AndyG hit the nail on the head with his Orange shootout. Im sure in his studio the Orange sounded totaly diferent in the open air to his ears.
Brian
about the tube/modeler debate: have you ever noticed that a live band sounds so much different than a recording of the same performance? If Im walking by some guy's house and notice that they are playing a drum kit in the garage I CAN tell that it is a drum kit and not a recording of some guy playing drums. I think this is what is hapening a lot with the folks that complain about the sound of modelers. They buy a modeler, plug some headphones into it, and then decide that it doesnt sound anything like an amplifier set up in front of them playing at volume. the modelers are trying to replicate a recorded sound. I think that AndyG hit the nail on the head with his Orange shootout. Im sure in his studio the Orange sounded totaly diferent in the open air to his ears.
Brian
Superlizard
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Volitions Advocate said:
Apparently it's not the so-called "aura" you speak of (well, for some I'm sure it is due to the cost - you know, the incorrect assumption that "more $$$ = better tone"), but
that pro tools has (unfortunately) become a standard, and if you wanna be compatible (session info etc) you have to have it.
I use Reaper (free) and Adobe Audition (free for me) and Nuendo (free for me) myself.
Pro-Tools, Schmoe-Tools!
Patrick from Davis
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For most of us, Pro Tools offers nothing greater than the other software. But for a studio, Protools' scalability, wealth of plug ins, and standardization makes it a far better choice. Digidesign was very smart to market versions of stripped down Protools for home users, it was a huge market for them. But, it doesn't offer the home user any real benefit for recording until you start playing in the same park where the bigger recording professionals do.
Two things that home recording can greatly improve from is a good mic and good headphones. It also helps to play well, but that might be asking a little much. Well from me at least.
Last note, Mark Sandman of Morphine commonly used a Tascam 688 to record the sessions in his loft. These recordings frequently made it to the albums. If the sound is good, go with it.
Patrick
Two things that home recording can greatly improve from is a good mic and good headphones. It also helps to play well, but that might be asking a little much. Well from me at least.
Last note, Mark Sandman of Morphine commonly used a Tascam 688 to record the sessions in his loft. These recordings frequently made it to the albums. If the sound is good, go with it.
Patrick
Patrick from Davis said:
Well said.
I use ProTools at home, because I have access to a HD system at work. However, as far as software goes, it is no better or worse than any other.
The one intelligent thing that Digidesign did was to make hardware and software that were compatible with each other, and with no guesswork involved. If you were using Logic, say, at home, and bought Apogee converters, you would get better sounding recordings, but the software would have nothing to do with it.
All software these days have the same basic functions, its just a matter of getting used to the shortcut keys. I'm used to ProTools, so that's why I use it ... but I've recorded on everything from Cubase to 2" tape, stand-alone harddisk recorders to the Sony DASH machines ... and for home recording, your best bet is to invest in converters, mics, and preamps ... as they will make the biggest difference to your recordings.
O
OzziePete
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I recently had holidays and spent some time (perhaps too much time, lol!) on the net trying to update myself on what was happening with the recording world.
Most professional studios would have a Pro Tools set up somewhere in their studio system. The HD system would have to be the industry recording standard system for digital recording. Costs an absolute bomb. But it works to the satisfaction of those in the business of making professional music.
I do know that it's software application side of things is probably not much better than Cubase, and other software recorder programs, but those Pro Tools HD PCI cards (worth about US$10K each) do a lot of processing and probably worth every cent.
But that is the professional side of things. Do we need all that whiz bang processing? Probably not.
The thing about modellers and indeed the whole digital audio processing 'thang' is the operating system that the PC or Mac uses. Upgrade to another OS and where do you stand with compatibility? I am very concerned about obsolescence due to non-compatibility issues. You'd spend a decent amount of money building up a digital recoding software package inside your PC only to find half of it might not migrate to a newer OS in a new PC. So you have to go out and get upgraded software, if you bothered to register, or buy a new version.
That, to me, is the thing that sticks in my craw about this technology. And I am now more leaning towards stand alone equipment as a result.
I have noticed too, that a lot of the demo vid clips are heavily slanted towards high gain applications and little about clean tube simulations. It's like, oh, there's Fender twin simulation, "briiiiiiiiiiing", there it is, and then onto another two or three minutes describing and playing heavy metal riffs, or Jimi emulations.
Superlizard I do understand your reluctance about this technology. But the day will come when there will be enough processing power in PCs to allow the programmers to write software/firmware that will incorporate the effects of power sag and tube warmth to a much greater detail.
As for the Digidesign Eleven, it is interesting to me as it is stand alone, to some degree. I will look at it but it may be overpriced for my own uses.
Most professional studios would have a Pro Tools set up somewhere in their studio system. The HD system would have to be the industry recording standard system for digital recording. Costs an absolute bomb. But it works to the satisfaction of those in the business of making professional music.
I do know that it's software application side of things is probably not much better than Cubase, and other software recorder programs, but those Pro Tools HD PCI cards (worth about US$10K each) do a lot of processing and probably worth every cent.
But that is the professional side of things. Do we need all that whiz bang processing? Probably not.
The thing about modellers and indeed the whole digital audio processing 'thang' is the operating system that the PC or Mac uses. Upgrade to another OS and where do you stand with compatibility? I am very concerned about obsolescence due to non-compatibility issues. You'd spend a decent amount of money building up a digital recoding software package inside your PC only to find half of it might not migrate to a newer OS in a new PC. So you have to go out and get upgraded software, if you bothered to register, or buy a new version.
That, to me, is the thing that sticks in my craw about this technology. And I am now more leaning towards stand alone equipment as a result.
I have noticed too, that a lot of the demo vid clips are heavily slanted towards high gain applications and little about clean tube simulations. It's like, oh, there's Fender twin simulation, "briiiiiiiiiiing", there it is, and then onto another two or three minutes describing and playing heavy metal riffs, or Jimi emulations.
Superlizard I do understand your reluctance about this technology. But the day will come when there will be enough processing power in PCs to allow the programmers to write software/firmware that will incorporate the effects of power sag and tube warmth to a much greater detail.
As for the Digidesign Eleven, it is interesting to me as it is stand alone, to some degree. I will look at it but it may be overpriced for my own uses.
