Dial Calipers, selection, quality, features, HELP!

[-CB-]

Was gonna stick this post in "Off Topic" but after thinking.....I think this is on topic for "Tips and Tricks" since tools for serious guitar work are a must.

Its time for another set of dial calipers, and I'm in full research mode......

What I'd love to get, is an older, but non-beat-up set of Mitutoyo 6" .01 rev carbide jaw calipers.  The old ones were fixable if they somehow jumped a tooth.  The new ones are not - except maybe a trip back to importer, at a cost to repair that is 80 percent of what a new set cost.

Ok, the rundown.....

Starrett's model 120x-6.  Has the features, carbide OD and .01 dial.  Thumbwheel, which I prefer.  Price $230.  Some online folks are saying the newer Starrett is crap, soft metal, easily warped, not like the old.  Assembled in USA, parts made God knows where.  If these were jam-up well made and hardened calipers, I'd spring for them no questions asked.

Mitutoyo 505-708 - same features as the Starrett, but not Mitutoyo is "made in Brazil", and the rack, while covered, can not be used to realign the needle, like the old ones could.  I've jumped tooth on one set of old ones... and the little key they give you works great to set it right again.  Does have the thumb roller, which I like.  New model has a cheezo plastic housing, and also has Titanium Nitride on the sliding parts. Cost $125

They also have a 505-712 with has carbide inner and outer jaws.  I've got the older model right here, and I've had to regrind the ID jaws because the very thin carbide on those has shattered twice on me.  I'm into the thicker material now, so they'll hold up - but - a good friend is getting them as a gift.... or maybe not.

Thats it for carbide.

Now for non-carbide, as plan B

Brown and Sharpe caliper, non carbide but made in Switzerland.  Supposedly a first rate unit, price about $120, but no thumb roller.

Etalon caliper, same as Brown and Sharpe, but with thumb roller.  Both the E and B/S models are supposed to have very hard stainless that holds up well, metal housings, metal bezels with crystal lenses (not plastic).

Mitutoyo plain jane model 505, with TiN coating, .01 dial etc, thumb roller and plastic housing, but cheap at $85

Mitotoyo "solar" caliper, no moving parts (except slider), no battery.  TiN coated, and cost about $165  This unit works in VERY dim light, like "dim, garage level" lighting of  60lux

Starrett 120a-6, plain jane version of the 120x-6, no carbide and gets good reviews by amateurs, but the repair shops say - Danger Will Robinson, Danger!

Everything else is Chinese or worse (Pakistan) made.  Those $30 specials... even some more mid priced ($60-100) units are foreign made, and not worth my money, since I buy precision measuring tools for their precision.....

So.... I'm in a state of confusion here.  DangerousR6.... looking for guidance bro!

 

[rapfohl09]

Tuning in to hear some answers here, as an engineering student and amateur guitar builder I've found its now time for my first set of calipers!

 

[Cagey]

I used to rebuild engines years ago, so I have both Starrett and Mitutoyo calipers, micrometers, rules, combo squares, etc. I'm also a cabinet-grade carpenter, with many projects under my belt.

I've found that for guitar work and woodworking in general that while the high-accuracy gauges are very satisfying to use, they're hardly called for. It's nice to use the absolute best tool available, but it doesn't really get you much. Wood just isn't that precise of a medium to work with. The stuff will move on you based on relative humidity, temperature, compression, species, cut, etc. If you can get to within a .01", you're doing good, although it probably won't be there when you come back to it 8 hours later. So, don't sweat it too much. What you want more than anything is repeatability; you can always compensate for inaccuracy.

 

[-CB-]

Frets, nuts, nut slots, string slots, saddles, saddle slots, they're all precision stuff on guitars.

FWIW, I always fit my nuts by caliper.  I have a series of tools that I made to do the slot in the wood to make it even (Warmoth almost never needs any help in that regard).  Then I fit the nut to the slot.  Can even fit the nut to a slightly "off" slot thats maybe .005 or so smaller at one end than the other.  Just make the nut the same way.

When making tools - custom string nut slot files for instance - you need to measure what you're doing.  Checking the combined thickness of stacked feeler gauges, for checking to see how the file cuts, as opposed to just its width.... needs close checking.

Then there's all the gun stuff, ammo stuff, motorcycle and engine stuff.... this all needs precision.

 

[-CB-]

Well folks, I ended up getting the Brown and Sharpe.

I was never a huge fan of B&S tools, but its hard to find a bad comment about them.  They'll be here in a few days.  Price $90ish shipped.  PM me if you want the vendor info.

Three people I spoke with - all in metrology - all said the newer Starrett tools, the 120x-6 (top of the line) is not even close to the older ones.  They're not junk, just not as good as they should be, especially for the price.  It seems the chief issue with the Starrett is the hardness of the beam and slider.  If you use the tool in the 0-1 inch range mostly (or any other range mostly) it will develop significant looseness in that range and if adjusted out, will result in tight fitting in the other ranges.  You get a worn spot.  That can be corrected, as the caliper can be totally taken apart, the beam can be reground on one or both sides, and it can be reassembled.  Cost is about $100 to do that - almost half the cost of a new one, and more than a new Brown and Sharpe.

I've been told that Brown and Sharpe have, if anything, significantly increased the surface hardness on their beams and jaws over the years as metallurgy and processes have improved.

Mitutoyo...I've got all Mit tools here except an old B&S depth mic (old and old looking but reads right to the .001", no issues!).  They were almost gotten, except... on the new plastic housing Mitutoyo, there are more than a few reports of gear issues, and pinion issues on the indicators.  Maybe they've worked them out, dunno.  Another thing that soured me on the Mit carbide caliper was the new way they grind the jaws.  The tips used to hollow ground, and the "knife" edge was about .025 inches.  Today its wedge ground and the knife edge is damn near a knife edge.  About .005 flats on the edge.  This makes for a very easy to chip tool.  The stainless ones are also ground like that, but stainless is much less brittle, thus less prone to chip.

Etalon, B&S and Tesa are all the same with the exception of thumb roller on the Etalon.  No quality difference, just marketed differently for the various industries and importers.  B&S labels the Tesa with B&S logo.  Etalon with their logo.  All are made by Tesa.  Thats why I went with the B&S.  The Etalon was $60 more - for the thumb roller.  I dont like it THAT much.....

The only tool that still intrigues me is the Mitutoyo solar and water/coolant proof caliper.  No gears.  Can set the zero on the fly anyplace along its travel.  Been out for nearly five years, so they have some track record.  And it works in dim light, and even "no light"
if you leave it in medium lighting for an hour (you charge a capacitor in the unit).  Then its good for several minutes of no light measuring, good to know when using the tool in some cramped locale, like when I was measuring the tailshaft seal on my trucks transmission.  BTW, its also can be used sight-unseen by making the measurement and hitting the zero button.  Then you withdraw the unit, and close it (on clean jaws).  The readout will show the correct size of what you just measured.  Thats cool.  Right now, after being sick for a few weeks, I chose the B&S but... maybe a Mit Solar waterproof in the toolbox before too long.

Hope that helps ya.  I had to do a TON of research to come up with that info. 

FWIW, steer clear of Fowler - made in China "Harbor Freight" quality tools, rebadged with the Fowler name, at Fowler prices. 

 

[Cagey]

That's all excellent information, and I thank you for doing the research.

I suspect I've been taking my tools for granted, as they're more accurate than they need to be 99% of the time for what I do. But, you're right - some stuff you want to get as close to dead nuts as you can, if for no other reason than to save time later trying to compensate. Plus, sometimes it's nice to be able to grab dimensions you can believe. For instance, it's surprising how often people don't know what gauge strings they've been using. Give 'em a pinch, and you know they're .009s or .010s or whatever. Can't get that from a sloppy gauge.

 

[-CB-]

Strings?  Oh don't go there... just do not ever go there, unless you want to begin to get frustrated.

No, strings are NOT always the sizes they say, and neither are they round.

As an example - a well known guitar company has its strings available in ball or bullet end.  I choose ball end, .010-.048 sets.  After years and years of using only that set... I mean ONLY that set, buying them by the case - you know what they feel like.  Then I get into a new case and they feel all funny.

Out comes the micrometer.  Turns out that none of the unwound strings are round.  I repeat.... not round by a decent amount.  The E and B were both out by about .0015 (not super sure on the .0005, just between the .001 marks about half way).  The G string was out by double that, or about .003.  We can feel .003 very well with our fingers!  Now imagine that unround string corkscrewing down your neck, because its not unround in a uniform manner, and neither does your neck put uniform strain on the string.

Then when I thought it was all over... I measured the wound strings.  Even worse, plus not the same size at each end, by a long shot.  Speaking in terms of strings that varied by .002 from end to end.  To me this had to be winding inadequacy.

Sigh.  I still use 'em, and they have not gotten any better, so I live with it, since I like the tone, and after they break in a little bit, they seem to feel better.

 

[Cagey]

You're right; I've found that you need to take several measurements and do a rough average in your head to decide what you're looking at. Alloys are not always pure, and so they'll react differently as they're pulled through the draw dies. Plus, dies wear. I suspect some companies pay more attention to that than others, as there's some real cost involved in replacing them. Finally, if you're not perfectly square to the thing, the angular error caused by the width of the jaws of the measuring tool to the measured piece will introduce some error in the measurement.

 

[DangerousR6]

It's a little after the fact, but I prefer the Mitutoyo Absolutes. I have 6", 8" in the coolant proof..

It's really just a matter pf preference, whether you like B&S, Mitutoyo, Starrett, they're all good enough for guitar work. But for my micrometers I have Starrett's, i just like the feel of them better than Mit's and B&S...

But we do have a B&S CMM, the ultimate measuring tool....Similar to this one only bigger...

 

[-CB-]

The B&S calipers arrived today...!!~~

Nice case, plastic, but with sliding locks on it.  Better than the snap open Mit cases, but both get the job done.

Came with a certificate of calibration, showing .00025 error at several spots along the six inch length.  The dial is in .001 increments with half of that also marked with little hatch marks.  So we're talking half of the half.  By the book, dial calipers are a +/- .001 type of tool on a six inch unit.  I was please with the accuracy, and verified up to one inch in .0625 increments by my own gauge blocks (50millionth at STP).

The calipers started out a little rough.  Jerky is more like it.  Snaggy, but not a mechanical snag, more like "sticktion".  They seemed tacky with preservative.  Cleaned them (as per included instructions) with a light cleaning fluid, in this case "Sea Foam" with is naphtha and light oil (which leaves a very light residue).  Right after cleaning, I measured those gauge blocks, and the calipers were still a little rough, but by the time I'd measured up to one full inch, everything had smoothed out, and they are pretty smooth.  I'm impressed.  The old Mitutoyo's I've got - "diamond master" verniers are exceedingly smooth.  The B&S does not come close to that, but may smooth up more. 

The housing is aluminum - looks like a die cast piece.  You'd think it was plastic, because the finish is dead flat bead blast.  But... its aluminum.  So is the dial bezel.  The "lens" is some sort of glass, not plastic.

So there ya go.  Good calipers, not carbide, but... thats life.  Next is gonna be those solar ones - they just intrigue me.

 

[NovasScootYa]

I used to rebuild engines years ago, so I have both Starrett and Mitutoyo calipers, micrometers, rules, combo squares, etc. I'm also a cabinet-grade carpenter, with many projects under my belt.

I've found that for guitar work and woodworking in general that while the high-accuracy gauges are very satisfying to use, they're hardly called for. It's nice to use the absolute best tool available, but it doesn't really get you much. Wood just isn't that precise of a medium to work with. The stuff will move on you based on relative humidity, temperature, compression, species, cut, etc. If you can get to within a .01", you're doing good, although it probably won't be there when you come back to it 8 hours later. So, don't sweat it too much. What you want more than anything is repeatability; you can always compensate for inaccuracy.

I concur fully. For my instruments I use a Fowler 52-030-006 Dial Caliper 6"/150MM purchased on eBay for $49.95 + Ship. Not a Harbor Freight model however it's made in China but you would never guess, high quality, smooth operation, no complaints which is rare for me.
I also build motors, here's my 4-bolt main BBC 468 (.060 over) being tweaked on a test stand I built. Amongst a laundry list of goodies it has a Crane Solid Lifter cam, exact specs as '67 427 Vette Tri-Power. And a nice SBC which wound up in a lowered '72 Chevy Truck.

 

[Cagey]

Nice! Lotsa horsies living in relatively small engines these days, but there's nothing like the neck-snapping torque of big iron, eh? <grin>

 

[NovasScootYa]

Nothing like it. Just for the heck of it I'd like to set that BB on a tube frame with a Toytota Prius body. But it's destined for a '78 Nova weekender with no AC, no power steering, radio delete, dog dish hubcaps, bench seat. Only luxury is a 700R4 Automatic and that will change eventually, I have the 4 speed pedal setup and linkage, hard to find for '75 to '79 Novas. The car building switch goes off and the guitar building switch turns on and vice versa. Right now I don't feel like doing either so I'll hang around and watch everybody else spend money...

 

[Cagey]

I had a '74 Nova that was like that. Total no-frills sleeper with no options, not even carpeting, except it came from S. California so it had A/C. Built it into a fire-breathing monster. Lotta fun. Cost a mint, and didn't last long.

 

[NovasScootYa]

Yes indeed one must have carpet delete too, I forgot about that, very important. 1974 last year for Gen. 3 Novas. Actually it's the body style I prefer but Gen 4 bodies can be bought right. My favorite years are '66 and '67 especially the '66 SS Nova/Chevy II 327 350 HP, nowadays you have to mortgage the house to buy one. I have two Novas, a 1976 and 1978 both have original paint, '76 has AC, power, etc. would make a nice car but the '78 gets the attention and hopefully it will be turn key by September and gas won't be $5.00 a gallon.

 

[-CB-]

Wood just isn't that precise of a medium to work with. The stuff will move on you based on relative humidity, temperature, compression, species, cut, etc. If you can get to within a .01", you're doing good, although it probably won't be there when you come back to it 8 hours later.

Actually - I know Ovation does fretboards much much tighter than that.  I know this because its both advertised, and I questioned Bill Kaman on that (he's Charlie's son).  Bill confirmed that their abrasive plane would do very fine work indeed, but like all wood it was subject to later swelling and/or shrinkage.  My old friend Andre Lis did up some cabinets for SEDAB (part of IBM) in Boca years ago, and their spec on the cabinet doors was outrageously tight - .005  Andy got them to agree to measure the doors upon his arrival at SEDAB, and also to agree that once accepted, the doors were theirs!  They did, and he delivered the same in the back of his station wagon, double sealed in plastic bags to keep them at least humidity stabilized.  He also (being an engineer) got his shop equal to the environmental spec of his station wagon - same (cool) temperature, blocked the sun, keep humidity low - for the 12 mile trip from his shop to SEDAB.  And I remember the way he had SEDAB make up the gauges for the door out of stainless, to be fitted individually to his 8" caliper, which they also certified.  He made an ungodly sum of money on the doors.  As he said, he bid high, tripled it, then doubled that, and doubled it again for good measure.  I'm guessing about a grand a door for a 4 piece unit, and there were....oh.... 20 or 30 of them!

 

[Cagey]

Now that I think about it, Carvin claims tighter specs than that, too. Most builders probably could, if they chose to.

As for IBM, I know. I've done some work for them, too, and they can be very demanding. But, they know what they want and are willing to pay for it, so how can you argue? Customer's always right.

 

[llmtelecaster]

I've put together about 4 guitars and I've gotten by fine with a pair of regular old veneer calipers in 16th increments and metric on the bottom. Maybe I was a couple thousandths off a time or two but all my guitars turned out fine.

 

[Jusatele]

Well folks, I ended up getting the Brown and Sharpe.

I was never a huge fan of B&S tools, but its hard to find a bad comment about them.  They'll be here in a few days.  Price $90ish shipped.  PM me if you want the vendor info.

Three people I spoke with - all in metrology - all said the newer Starrett tools, the 120x-6 (top of the line) is not even close to the older ones.  They're not junk, just not as good as they should be, especially for the price.  It seems the chief issue with the Starrett is the hardness of the beam and slider.  If you use the tool in the 0-1 inch range mostly (or any other range mostly) it will develop significant looseness in that range and if adjusted out, will result in tight fitting in the other ranges.  You get a worn spot.  That can be corrected, as the caliper can be totally taken apart, the beam can be reground on one or both sides, and it can be reassembled.  Cost is about $100 to do that - almost half the cost of a new one, and more than a new Brown and Sharpe.

I've been told that Brown and Sharpe have, if anything, significantly increased the surface hardness on their beams and jaws over the years as metallurgy and processes have improved.

Mitutoyo...I've got all Mit tools here except an old B&S depth mic (old and old looking but reads right to the .001", no issues!).  They were almost gotten, except... on the new plastic housing Mitutoyo, there are more than a few reports of gear issues, and pinion issues on the indicators.  Maybe they've worked them out, dunno.  Another thing that soured me on the Mit carbide caliper was the new way they grind the jaws.  The tips used to hollow ground, and the "knife" edge was about .025 inches.  Today its wedge ground and the knife edge is damn near a knife edge.  About .005 flats on the edge.  This makes for a very easy to chip tool.  The stainless ones are also ground like that, but stainless is much less brittle, thus less prone to chip.

Etalon, B&S and Tesa are all the same with the exception of thumb roller on the Etalon.  No quality difference, just marketed differently for the various industries and importers.  B&S labels the Tesa with B&S logo.  Etalon with their logo.  All are made by Tesa.  Thats why I went with the B&S.  The Etalon was $60 more - for the thumb roller.  I dont like it THAT much.....

The only tool that still intrigues me is the Mitutoyo solar and water/coolant proof caliper.  No gears.  Can set the zero on the fly anyplace along its travel.   Been out for nearly five years, so they have some track record.  And it works in dim light, and even "no light"
if you leave it in medium lighting for an hour (you charge a capacitor in the unit).  Then its good for several minutes of no light measuring, good to know when using the tool in some cramped locale, like when I was measuring the tailshaft seal on my trucks transmission.  BTW, its also can be used sight-unseen by making the measurement and hitting the zero button.  Then you withdraw the unit, and close it (on clean jaws).  The readout will show the correct size of what you just measured.  Thats cool.  Right now, after being sick for a few weeks, I chose the B&S but... maybe a Mit Solar waterproof in the toolbox before too long.

Hope that helps ya.  I had to do a TON of research to come up with that info. 

FWIW, steer clear of Fowler - made in China "Harbor Freight" quality tools, rebadged with the Fowler name, at Fowler prices.   

thanks for this info, I dropped one of my calipers today while working on my 67 Jeep and when I picked up the pieces decided a new set was in order. It really is hard to find quality today in a world ruled by cheap imports.
on a side note, anyone need some used parts for a ..................................... 

 

[-CB-]

As a follow up -

I ended up getting the B&S _and_ the Mitutoyo solar calipers - both.  Each has different uses.

The B&S is wonderfully accurate, for a mechanical device, against my gage blocks out to 2" never more than "a dot" (.0005) off.  After that it gets hard to get blocks to stack, and I dont have anything bigger to check it on...  I'll just go with the flow on that.

I've also set the Mitutoyo against the gage blocks, and you get this sort of -.0005 -.000 (minus "zero"?) fluctuation its like borderline -.0005 on some gauge blocks.  Its not the blocks, they're better than that by far....

So it looks like we got two winners.  Without a doubt, the Mitutoyo solar is my new go-to measuring tool.  Just a fantastic instrument, medium pricey as good calipers go.

Check out http://www.penntool.com  for some of the best pricing available.  If you need to shave $5 or so you can shop all day and maybe find a better price, and maybe not.  They seem to be neck and neck with other price leader online retailers, and blew the doors off my two local suppliers (Tool & Die Supply, and Micro-Quality Corp.)