Chambered Strat body : too light ?

[croquet hoop]

While waiting for my strat neck to arrive, I am studying the options Warmoth offers for a strat body (if you want to skip the long read, the two questions are summed up at the end of the post).

I originally intended to get a standard 2-piece alder strat body, but since this is not intended as a standard/vintage build, but rather as a modern take on the Strat concept (compound radius, SS 6150 frets, graphtech nut, Gotoh VS100 bridge & height-adjustable locking tuners, EMG pickups), I thought that I might as well go for something less conservative — what the heck, this is Warmoth, not Allparts. Then I found about W's chambered bodies, began to leaf through the showcase, and considered going for a lightweight chambered body.

Now I have read a bit about it, and I understand that this construction allow for lighter bodies with no alteration (for better or worse) regarding tone. Which is fine for me. The thing is, I am a bit confused about my choices.

Ideally, I'd like to chose a body from the showcase, as it seems to be the only way to know for sure how much the body weighs and how the laminate top looks. So, here are my questions :

- can a body be too light ? We can find swamp ash bodies with figured maple that weigh only 2 lbs 15 oz (1,33 kg), while the average solid alder body is around 4 lbs (1,81 kg). Which is quite a difference. Is it okay to go for such a light body, or would it be safer to get one that weight a bit more, say around 3 lbs 9 oz (1,61 kg)? Is there a point at which the lack of mass becomes detrimental to the tone?

- there are lots of chambered swamp ash bodies on the showcase, but the choice of alder bodies is very limited. I originally settled on an alder body as a safe middle-ground, having never owned a swamp ash or alder guitar before. My main axe is an Ibanez RG 1550 with a 5-piece basswood body, the other one is a cheap Strat copy with a 3-piece agathis body that actually resonates WAY better acoustically. So I doubt I could be disappointed with a quality swamp ash body, especially given the (admittedly, although not by all) limited influence of the body wood on the overall tone, but still: if I want a well-balanced sound, is ash as likely to satisfy my needs as alder, or will it sound too something ?


To sum up:
- is there a point at which a lighter body (under 3 lbs) starts to have a detrimental effect on tone? Is there an ideal/recommended range of values ?
- would a swamp ash + maple laminate top be a huge departure from what I initially wanted (solid alder body) ?

 

[Cagey]

To answer your questions directly, I'd say no, no and no. With electric guitars, you worry more about your neck, pickups/electronics and bridge than anything else. Other things will influence the end result, but they don't have nearly as much impact as they're often given credit for. Does the [type of strap hanger] make a difference? Maybe. Can you hear it? Probably not. Insert any variable for [type of strap hanger]. But, you add enough of them together, and you end up with a unique instrument. So, you pays yer munny and you makes yer choice. If the result bites the root, there's always eBay. If not, proceed to take over the world.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

I had an Alder bodied Strat, and I switched the body for an Ash one. Everything else the same. No discernible difference in sound. And don't worry about the weight, it would have to be impossibly light before it made a difference.

 

[croquet hoop]

Thanks for chiming in! So I'll certainly try a light swamp ash + maple body then. Now I need to find a good way to finish it, I'll go and see what kind of finish looks good on a flame/quilt top with a pickguard.

 

[swarfrat]

Even for the amount it does matter, people disagree on how. Generally the heavy body proponents cite sustain, and the light body proponents cite resonance. I'm in the latter group.

Someone just did a thinline in basswood, right up my alley.

 

[lkja8uatt33]

I have an alder body with the pro modern neck that has the double expanding truss rod. I get wonderful sustain. The body was around 4 lbs I think. It's not light.
I think the Warmoth pro necks will automatically give you better sustain. Report back and let us know please.

 

[mystique1]

I have a hardtail Chambered Swamp Ash Strat body, and the whole guitar comes in at 6.25lbs. I don't know what makes the difference, but with the same DiMarzio pups I had in my Fender, I've had to turn the gain control down on my Amp because the sound is much more upfront with the Warmoth. Great stuff IMO!

 

[Great Ape]

I don't think it's possible to find a body that's too light. And, the older y'get, the more you appreciate them featherweight jobs :icon_biggrin:. No negative effect on tone, either, to say the least!

 

[croquet hoop]

That's great! So now that the construction dilemma is settled, I have to think about a suitable finish for a maple neck strat with flame/quilt maple top. Obviously I would like to enhance the quality of the maple laminate, and avoid over the top/loud results...

Maybe an amber/brown burst like on the Fender Select series ?

This is quite a departure from what I envisioned when I thought about getting a partscaster (until recently a flame top on a Strat was heresy to me — solid color or sunburst only), but I have to admit this finish is growing on me. And since the neck will be flame maple...

I will have to practice a bit before even thinking of doing such a finish myself though. What is the closest equivalent by Warmoth, Cherry burst? Or maybe Honey burst (a tad darker/les reddish it seems)?

 

[Hbom]

Sounds like a great project. Chambered Ash rocks.
IMO It's hard to obtain the quality of a W finish at home with limited experience and equipment for anywhere near the cost.

This is a pretty one.
http://www.warmoth.com/Showcase/ShowcaseItem.aspx?Body=2&Shape=1&Type=1&Paint=1&Path=Stratocaster,Standard,Finished&lamTop=7&core=68&i=PS7684

My $.02

 

[croquet hoop]

Yeah, I have just gone through all the finished chambered ash bodies in the showcase and, oh my. There are some jawdropping pieces.

And when I factor the cost of the finishing equipment/material, the amount of time spent experimenting on scrap wood and building my dream finish, the $400-500 they ask seems very reasonable.

There are one or to things that still hold me back, but I'll think about it.

 

[Strat Avenger]

That's great! So now that the construction dilemma is settled, I have to think about a suitable finish for a maple neck strat with flame/quilt maple top. Obviously I would like to enhance the quality of the maple laminate, and avoid over the top/loud results...

Maybe an amber/brown burst like on the Fender Select series ?

This is quite a departure from what I envisioned when I thought about getting a partscaster (until recently a flame top on a Strat was heresy to me — solid color or sunburst only), but I have to admit this finish is growing on me. And since the neck will be flame maple...

I will have to practice a bit before even thinking of doing such a finish myself though. What is the closest equivalent by Warmoth, Cherry burst? Or maybe Honey burst (a tad darker/les reddish it seems)?

Why are the edges of this body so hard (squared off)??

 

[croquet hoop]

I have no idea. Maybe to give the body a more modern look, the edge is very similar of that of Ibanez RG bodies. I love that on an Ibanez, and I think it looks fine here, except on the lower horn, which looks way to thick.

 

[Hbom]

I don't mean to imply it's something you can't do. But if you figure time, material, and equipment, it's hard to justify unless you plan to do enough guits to pay for the tools.

But then, I am addicted to the daily RSS feeds, and don't have space for a paint booth. :sad:

My advice would be to decide what you really gotta have, what you can be a little flexible about, and how much you want to spend.
Then watch the showcase and be patient.

:rock-on:

And;

Posted by: Street Avenger
« on: Today at 10:14:22 am » Insert Quote

"Why are the edges of this body so hard (squared off)??"

Comment withdrawn because "if I can't say something nice, shutup!"

 

[alterbridgefan]

That's great! So now that the construction dilemma is settled, I have to think about a suitable finish for a maple neck strat with flame/quilt maple top. Obviously I would like to enhance the quality of the maple laminate, and avoid over the top/loud results...

Maybe an amber/brown burst like on the Fender Select series ?

This is quite a departure from what I envisioned when I thought about getting a partscaster (until recently a flame top on a Strat was heresy to me — solid color or sunburst only), but I have to admit this finish is growing on me. And since the neck will be flame maple...

I will have to practice a bit before even thinking of doing such a finish myself though. What is the closest equivalent by Warmoth, Cherry burst? Or maybe Honey burst (a tad darker/les reddish it seems)?

Why are the edges of this body so hard (squared off)??

Because the top is thin.

 

[croquet hoop]

I don't mean to imply it's something you can't do. But if you figure time, material, and equipment, it's hard to justify unless you plan to do enough guits to pay for the tools.

Well, it was a very reasonable remark. I don't have a paint booth either, and I don't have the space needed to set one up. The best I could envision, as far as spraying is concerned, is using a Preval unit on my balcony.

I'm okay with investing in tools to do the job properly — after this project, I will certainly make a new body for my RG, then build a Tele. Then a bass hopefully. So even if I get a finished body now, I will face the same dilemma in a relatively near future.

I know there are good alternatives to sprayed finishes — some can be brushed (although the leveling work between coats is far more tedious), and there is still shellac/french polish (I mainly play at home, so the guitar won't see a lot of abuse). But I wonder if it's possible to french polish a guitar without messing the dyes?

Anyway, I won't be rushing this. I have a spare body that will be good enough for now, which leaves me some time either to find the perfect body in the showcase, or to experiment with dyes and finishes. I'll try to find scaps of maple/ash to practise on... time for a trip to my local luthier!

 

[Cagey]

I know there are good alternatives to sprayed finishes...

Not really. Not for anything you're going to use. Don't get me wrong - you can certainly get some super-fine finishes from the various polymerized oils, shellac, french polishing, etc. - many excellent examples exist - but they're only suitable for display. Use them, and you lose them. They go to hell in a handbasket in a hurry.

For an instrument, you want at least lacquer, but polyurethane is the best. Lacquer is handy for the DIY guys, as the price of entry is low and forgiveness is high if you're patient enough to go through the steps and repair mistakes if necessary, but poly is where it's at. It's as attractive as highly-polished lacquer right out of the gate, low labor, Incredibly robust... what's not to love? Other than it's not something you can do in your basement or garage and it's very unforgiving about application. But, that's where companies like Warmoth come in. They have the talent and they're set up for it, which is no mean feat. Imagine... a poly finish for $170-$225 with guaranteed pro results? What could possibly be wrong with that? You could go second best and do lacquer, but it's going to cost you twice as much because there's a ton of labor involved. Then, the stuff chips/scratches if you even look at it wrong.

Unless you want something Warmoth can't/won't offer, or you end up with a naked body outside their factory, I think it's foolish to get any other finish.

 

[stubhead]

Aww, everybody went and "marked" the thread afor I got here...

...is there a point at which a lighter body (under 3 lbs) starts to have a detrimental effect on tone? Is there an ideal/recommended range of values ?

Conventional wisdom sez that there is a continuum here, which gradually goes from:

light/woody/resonant*/warm/bluesy/somewhat-not-heavy-metal

all the way TO:

heavy/rigid/metallic/hard/sustaining/flat/trebly**

Conventional wisdom is actually pretty good on this, though I would add that the 2nd asterisk is applied because the first frequencies munched by light/woody/warm are the treble, and many people have hit upon some great-sounding schemes without really knowing too much about where and when their signal is cut, boosted, processed, munched. For my own purposes, I have come to prefer a relatively bright, non-woody, sustaining kind of guitar plugged into a rig where the treble frequencies are stomped down at the very last of the chain, the speakers. I like the way a bright/flat signal goes through effects and cords and tubes and such. Plugging a bright guitar into a dark amp will not get the same results as plugging a dark guitar into a bright amp.

One major caveat of the above view is that there IS NO SUCH THING AS "BEST", because it's all interrelated, and people tune their sound bright->warm & vice-versa by changing components, quite willy-nilly at times. The first asterisk - resonant* - is a term applied so widely that I don't have much idea what any certain person really means. Will a guitar that vibrates all in your lap like a retarded poodle sound great when you plug it in?

WELL SHIT, I DON'T KNOW - WHY DON'T YOU PLUG IT IN AND SEE?
n' then wipe off the plug, and plug in the guitar....

Why are the edges of this body so hard (squared off)??

Because somebody wanted it? I also really like a hard edge for my forearm to rest on when seated, I find guitars like Strats and other guitar with forearm contours to be slithery and resistant in an annoyingly-passive sense. Further, I would even attribute the predominance of Telecasters among country speed demons and the usage of non-contoured "Superstrats" among metal demons to this hard edge, and how it affected the years of prior practicing.

Here is a noted Strat-slinger playing his big hit single, "Cliffs of Dover":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZiAVI13ky0

On an SG? I'd say it's likely he turned his amp's treble from "5" to "7" or so.

 

[croquet hoop]

I know there are good alternatives to sprayed finishes...

Not really. Not for anything you're going to use. Don't get me wrong - you can certainly get some super-fine finishes from the various polymerized oils, shellac, french polishing, etc. - many excellent examples exist - but they're only suitable for display. Use them, and you lose them. They go to hell in a handbasket in a hurry.

For an instrument, you want at least lacquer, but polyurethane is the best. Lacquer is handy for the DIY guys, as the price of entry is low and forgiveness is high if you're patient enough to go through the steps and repair mistakes if necessary, but poly is where it's at. It's as attractive as highly-polished lacquer right out of the gate, low labor, Incredibly robust... what's not to love? Other than it's not something you can do in your basement or garage and it's very unforgiving about application. But, that's where companies like Warmoth come in. They have the talent and they're set up for it, which is no mean feat. Imagine... a poly finish for $170-$225 with guaranteed pro results? What could possibly be wrong with that? You could go second best and do lacquer, but it's going to cost you twice as much because there's a ton of labor involved. Then, the stuff chips/scratches if you even look at it wrong.

Unless you want something Warmoth can't/won't offer, or you end up with a naked body outside their factory, I think it's foolish to get any other finish.

On the one hand, I completely agree. On the other hand, there is the urge/pleasure to do it yourself. It's not really a matter of cost. It's just that I know I may very well enjoy finishing the body myself as much as playing the guitar when it's finished. Being a home player, I'm not too concerned about damaging the finish so badly that I will regret no having covered it with a tough poly coat. Plus, lacquer and shellac are not hard to touch up (but only if you know how to do it properly, same old story).

Well, I'll start with some stain/finish tests on scraps. Even if I end up buying the body finished from Warmoth, the experience will be useful for future builds.

What do you think I need for the burst (honey) ? I'm thinking amber and Red mahogany. Well, and orange too. And another shade of brown (medium brown ?).

Since the chambering issue is now settled, maybe I should move this to the DIY finish section. I have a bit of research to do, but I'll be glad to detail the process for anyone interested.

 

[swarfrat]

I see people all the time either deluded that they can save money doing it themselves, or else disparaging DIY this that and the other as not cost effective. Usually followed by supporting arguments on one side or the other. Usually  either fun/learning/hobby or else "exactly the way I want it"

But one aspect I don't think I've ever seen is that it often lets you break the cost down into smaller chunks