Bridge of Dooooooom....

[Cagey]

The thing with a vibrato bridge is that first and foremost you must at least attempt to eliminate all friction so it returns to neutral reliably. I'm no mechanical genius, but I'm no slouch either, and I can't see a better way of doing that than what Floyd Rose came up with using a two-point knife-edge fulcrum. Ball bearings, sleeve bearings, cams, all the various hinges, Leo's insane 6 post abomination, Gibson's attempt to top that insanity with a slotted sheet metal hinge, all those attempts result in too much friction/torsion and so an intermittent behavior, which is death on tuning. So, anything other than a self-centering two-point knife edge is a non-starter, as far as I can tell. Plus, it's dirt simple. Occam would be proud, what with the razor edge and all <grin>

Then, you want to be able to adjust your intonation and string height to compensate for the compromised neck arrangement. Fender didn't do too badly there, but their materials choices for string saddles left a lot to be desired. A cast part would be worlds better than some stamped sheet metal garbage, and that's what nearly everybody who's anybody provides unless they're catering to the zombie market.

You might want to lock those saddles in place so they don't move, but that's easy enough to do.

So, what are we left with? A Wilkinson VS100. Problem solved.

 

[Alfang]

Danger, as long as the break over the saddle is enough then it would probably work.

I guess my goal is to create a trem system that could work without all the typical routing for the block and spring cavity, maybe it can't be done, but I will keep mulling it over in my head till I figure it out or my head explodes.

Someone will figure out a new system and we will all think, No Shit, why didn't we figure that out.

 

[Superlizard]

For my money, the best vibrato out there; both mechanical-wise, ease-of-use and especially
tone-wise (something that always takes the back seat in these
discussions):

Fender Am Std 2-point... minus the crap zinc block saddles &
crap zinc block.

Replace aforementioned tone-sucking parts wtih:

Callaham cold-rolled steel stamped saddles, block & arm.

Voila - now do you not only have a smooth-playing trem,
you also have excellent tone.

pro tip:  zinc saddles, blocks, etc... are known tone-killers.   :sign13:

 

[Alfang]

Mr L  While I agree with much of what you said

You Lose me when you use the term "Known tone suckers"  Unless it's made of rubber the term tone sucker is a matter of your perception or in most cases probably imagination

the term tone gets thrown arround real loosly in the guitar world, smacking a rubber mallet on an anvil has tone

You could argue that david gilmour has NO tone at all, it's just clear pure whatever, it sure sounds good, Jimmy hendrix had a ton of tone, or is it that, thats the equipment he had and he played with what he had and we liked it, so it sounds amazing.

I don't pretend to have the answers at all, But I bet the term TONE was never used back in the 60's and 70's except by the guys at the mixing board turning the Tone knobs for more trebble or Base

And by the way, Many a great player back in the day, and even today, use those same tone sucking zinc saddles and blocks. Like =CB= said tone comes from a whole lotta things, and sometimes what you think has no tone, is the perfect sound for that music

 

[stubhead]

I'm not sure if you use the term "zinc" to mean any cast metal? The solid metal Fender saddles are made out of "sintered steel."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_metallurgy

I'm sure one reason for using them has to do with cost - machining a hard steel is a lot more work than with brass - but even the more expensive refit bridges like Hipshot are made out of softer brass, then plated. Another factor behind them has to be tone, as Fender isn't quite as stupid as some people make out. Just off the top of my head, people using these "tone-sucking" components are Sonny Landreth, Jimmy Herring, and this guy (Fender Standard 2-point w/Fender block & sintered steel saddles):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYqN-3JEe1Y

You find me somebody who can sound better than that because they've got a better bridge, I'll try it out.

 

[Superlizard]

I'm not sure if you use the term "zinc" to mean any cast metal? The solid metal Fender saddles are made out of "sintered steel."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_metallurgy

I'm sure one reason for using them has to do with cost - machining a hard steel is a lot more work than with brass - but even the more expensive refit bridges like Hipshot are made out of softer brass, then plated. Another factor behind them has to be tone, as Fender isn't quite as stupid as some people make out. Just off the top of my head, people using these "tone-sucking" components are Sonny Landreth, Jimmy Herring, and this guy (Fender Standard 2-point w/Fender block & sintered steel saddles):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYqN-3JEe1Y

You find me somebody who can sound better than that because they've got a better bridge, I'll try it out.

Zinc, sintered steel, pot metal... cheap poop metal.

While I admire Beck's playing, I don't find his modern tone particularly inspiring... it has a ratty, pingy treble to it.

Contrast the above vid with this tune Led Boots from '76 (when Fender only offered "cheap stamped saddles")... his tone
is fuller, clearer and more "liquid":

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqV97z0tzus[/youtube]

...then contrast to same tune (live) played today using modern, "improved" cheap pot saddles... his tone once again has that
ratty, pingy treble:

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6T6AQ5yXqc[/youtube]

I know that ratty, pingy treble; I'm all too familiar with it.  Because I've owned a couple Am Std Strats with
those supposedly "improved" pot metal saddles.  The Callaham saddles bring back that old-school strat "crang"
without "rats" or "ping" on the treble - smooth and clear treble is what we're talking about here; not harsh treble.

FWIW and IIRC, Fender made those Am Std Strat trem pot metal saddles block-style expressly for Jeff Beck, because he didn't
like how the old stamped saddles' height adjustment screws would dig into his hand heel when doing his "hand heel whammy"
techniques.

 

[m4rk0]

your design looks a little like one I have on a very old Schecter.
it is one of the locking tuners I like since they are less bulky and still very functional..

check this:

(sorry for the dusty pics.. had to dig it up...)

the plate itself is pretty thick, while there is almost no trem block:

this is where the knife slides in:

there are 6 individual hinges in which the strings go, and are pushed down by the fine tune screws..

 

[DangerousR6]

Interesting, never seen that bridge before... :icon_scratch:

 

[m4rk0]

here are some other "less bulky" designs I like:


Fender's System I (By schaller)

stays in tune great and does not need cutting strings:

here is the bendmaster (Westone) which is great, because you can string it real quick by hooking the string end on top of the bridge:

the bendmaster deluxe works well too, but is way more bulky:

 

[m4rk0]

Interesting, never seen that bridge before... :icon_scratch:

Me neither, it was on an old 80s set neck Schecter that I bought years ago on the first monday in Canton for 60 bucks..I think it was actually made in Texas!  I still need to refinish that sometimes..

 

[DangerousR6]

Interesting, never seen that bridge before... :icon_scratch:

Me neither, it was on an old 80s set neck Schecter that I bought years ago on the first monday in Canton for 60 bucks..I think it was actually made in Texas!  I still need to refinish that sometimes..

Nice, yes Schecters used to be made in Texas... :headbang:

 

[Superlizard]

Can you say, "Washburn Wonderbar"...?

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Ahh, the Fender System 1 (the series actually) hallmarks of the contemporary guitar lines.  I have one of those, and it does work quite well.
Patrick

 

[downhomerock]

Well, just to throw this out there, and to bump this thread wayyyyy up, i would suggest modeling something similar to the ibanez edge lo-pro or the edge pro.

^lo-pro
This one requires the ball end of the string to be clipped or fed through the tuning machines on the headstock

I cannot find a decent diagram of the pro, but i can tell you that the ball end of the string feeds in through the bottom of the saddle, and that the base plate is flat not angled.

^edge pro

I find these two to be some of the best floaters out there. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Cagey]

You're kidding, right?

Whaddaya gotta do, ship your guitar to Germany if you break a string?

Simplify. Get rid of 90% of those parts, and you might have something serviceable.

That's the problem with Floyds already. Changing a string shouldn't be like rebuilding a carburetor, with the attendant requirement for a full mechanic's tool chest and 8 years experience.

 

[bagman67]

Come on, Cagey, there are mechanics out there who were adjusting carbs effectively after only 5 years and seven months of swearing at the damn things  experience.

 

[Cagey]

No doubt. But I said rebuilding. Anybody can adjust. All it requires is a certain amount of hubris and an inexpensive set of small screwdrivers and wrenches that Sears puts in the Super Sunday Sales Spectacular every week. And thank the FSM for that - it makes remunerative work for those of us who can actually rebuild them <grin>

 

[downhomerock]

changing strings on both of the trems i just listed are soooo easy.  You obviously have never used either before, while i own both.  The edge pro does require you to remove the
trem cover, but after that, its one of the easiest floyd-like trems to change strings with.

And i wasnt saying to copy them completely, but to use the designs as reference, such as the flat baseplate and low profile. 

Trust me, ive rebuilt carburators and changed strings on floyd rose style trems before, guess which was easier.

 

[Cagey]

Holy crap! You gotta remove the trem cover, too? So, now you've got to carry a set of metric allen wrenches and screwdrivers? At what point would you say this thing becomes a problem child? Does it have to have abrasive parts that chew the skin off your palm heel? Does it need to pinch you every 3rd note? What if it was tied to the house mains and shocked the snot out of you every time you touched it? How much abuse do you need to tolerate before you start to wonder if it's all worth it? It's a bloody bridge, fer crissakes!

When you're up on stage in front of X number of people and a string breaks, you can't tell them you'll be back in a week or two with a new string. You've got to change it RFN. No fiddle-faddle, just do it, and I mean immediately. Otherwise, you're done. It's the only thing anybody will remember, and few things are as damaging to your career or reputation as needing to show off when you've got nothing. May as well be standing there naked with a drippy 2" peter <grin>

Thankfully, on the the other hand, I'm not the first one who's considered this. Mr. Wilkinson managed to achieve the goal of a simple vibrato bridge that uses less than a thousand parts, maintains its form, is repeatable, and doesn't require a degree in mechanical engineering to change strings. Schaller has some nice designs, too, but they're difficult to get in the US. See this part...

Super-flat, roller saddles to reduce string abrasion, adjustable in two dimensions, intonation locks, and nothing to it. What could possibly be wrong with that? Want more range, like a Floyd has? Route the body more to clear the sustain block. That's all the Floyd requires. It's a no-brainer.

Incidentally, I have owned or worked with Floyds and similar; I'm not talking out of my ass. I've been playing with this stuff for almost 3 times as long as you've been alive.

 

[bagman67]

Also, get off Cagey's lawn.