Bizarre Body Styles

[Cagey]

I saw a shot in the "GAS Alert" thread that reminded me of something else, and thought a thread on the subject might be in order rather than cluttering up the other.

Here's the one Stogie Patriot posted...

He's looking for inspiration to do something similar himself.

Here's one of a 7 string I saw about 5 years ago....

I don't remember where; I just kept a copy of the picture on the server. I'm not sure if it's even real (close inspection says it's not), but it's a neat idea anyway. Note how he even carried it forward, doing an inlay of the dragon's tongue on the fretboard.

 

[StogiePatriot]

I've not seen that one before - it's amazing; although I'm not sure I'd want to gig with it....  I've always looked at the spikey upper bouts/forearm side of the guitar with some interest but skepticism.  How comfy; it'd be like dancing with a leper... Or the ugly chick in high school - arms way out, trying like all get to not touch her....

My reason for asking is I'm heavily considering merging two things I'm good at (woodworking and carving) into the guitar realm - the tricky bit is this: does a market exist for it?  If I can pump out good axes with carvings and inlays for under 1500, would the boutique market be big enough to have it make sense?  Or should I just focus on eBay and dorking around for my own pleasure, building on spec and selling to the interested?

Thanks for helping with the thread hijack remediation - I'm sure Mayfly will appreciate

 

[swarfrat]

$1500 and under is for the big boys. As a small guy, particularly doing something as labor intensive as carving, you'll want to charge through the nose and make em happy for the privilege.

 

[Cagey]

I've not seen that one before - it's amazing; although I'm not sure I'd want to gig with it....  I've always looked at the spikey upper bouts/forearm side of the guitar with some interest but skepticism.  How comfy; it'd be like dancing with a leper... Or the ugly chick in high school - arms way out, trying like all get to not touch her....

I suspect if you built a guitar like that, it would be more of a wallflower than anything else. As you say, it can't possibly be comfortable to play. Plus, if you took it out into the big, bad world, it's likely somebody would relieve you of it before the night was over. So, it's a conversation piece, or functional artwork.

My reason for asking is I'm heavily considering merging two things I'm good at (woodworking and carving) into the guitar realm - the tricky bit is this: does a market exist for it?  If I can pump out good axes with carvings and inlays for under 1500, would the boutique market be big enough to have it make sense?  Or should I just focus on eBay and dorking around for my own pleasure, building on spec and selling to the interested?

I'm sure a market exists; the trick is finding it, or making it easy for it to find you.

Ebay isn't the way to go - it's just a glorified flea market. The occasional half-mil Les Paul notwithstanding, the people who shop there are looking for bargains. You can spend $1,500-$2,000 building the Warmoth ax of doom with nothing but the rarest of woods, ultimate finishes, the best of hardware/electronics, set up by God and never touched otherwise so it's brand-spanking new, offer an Anvil flight case with it and free shipping, and you'll rarely see one sell for much more than $500-$600. $700, if somebody has a hard-on for what you've done.

You need your own website with lotsa pretty pictures (which also won't do it, but they've gotta order from somewhere), and some good word of mouth. Then, you've gotta charge way too much or, oddly enough, people won't believe they're getting any value.

Build one, and be slavish about keeping track of your time/materials. Don't cheat; just because you made a mistake that eats up a day or three doesn't mean that time doesn't count. You will always screw up. Book on it. I think you'll find that if you pay yourself a tradesman's wage, say $25/hr, you'll have to sell even the simplest Strat copy for $2,500 or better. Wanna carve on it? Add anything else special? Price goes up fast.

If you try and compete with the major OEMs, you'll find yourself working for $.38 cents an hour. Which, unsurprisingly, is how the Pacific Rim inhabitants are doing it.

 

[swarfrat]

Coastal NC has a huge duck hunting tradition. I recall seeing a show or reading about this one guy  years ago, who's exquisite hand carved decoys sold for  $10k each. He made 2 a year. Which doesn't go far if you're trying to raise kids, let alone actually go duck hunting - which I'm guessing is the reason he ever got interested enough to start making them himself.

 

[StogiePatriot]

Coastal NC has a huge duck hunting tradition. I recall seeing a show or reading about this one guy  years ago, who's exquisite hand carved decoys sold for  $10k each. He made 2 a year. Which doesn't go far if you're trying to raise kids, let alone actually go duck hunting - which I'm guessing is the reason he ever got interested enough to start making them himself.

Wonder if that was Vic Kirkman?  He's easily one of the best in that region and a storied educator for those wanting to learn.  When his students enter in the competitions that I participate in the other folks groan....

Cagey, my guess is the first one would take about 40 hours to make the guitar (basswood/mahogany) and for a moderate carving job it would take 300 hours.  For an african rim level of quality that would drop to maybe 60 hours. 
I've looked at etsy and my guess is advertise on Google and bird-dog offers to places like GC and music stores within 500 miles to start...  Any repeat work would drop about 50% on the hours just because you know what to expect and you can get more aggressive.


Let me pose another question - IF you were to acquire a carved guitar, what would you want on it?  Some ideas:
-Traditional flower work (see Lemmy's Ricky bass)
-Tattoo work (standalone skull & dagger; nymph/pixie; etc)
-Fantasy
-Repro visual art carved in relief (your band logo; Rosie the riveter and so on...)
-Celtic pieces

Just thinking on this; the GAS'rs who are here are constantly thinking about new guitars and how to differentiate themselves.  If I could do 20 in a year I'd be happy... (Guess I'll have to get my wife to make more money....)

 

[Cagey]

Using your numbers, you haven't got time to do 20/yr. You say you need 40+300 hours for a moderately carved guitar, which translates into 8 and a half weeks. At that rate, you could only make roughly 5 guitars a year working full time, and if you wanted a working wage, you'd have to charge $8,500 + materials. It's a $10K fiddle. You're out of "boutique" and into insane. Although, to be fair, look what Gibson gets for a Les Paul Custom. They're clearly tossed together like a burger and fries from a short-order cook at the local greasy spoon. Even the Koreans do a better job for an order of magnitude less money, but you can't buy a pack of gum for what they make an hour.

Back to you, though, between being "American Made" and unique, who knows what you could get? If you could get Steve Vai or somebody like that to play one in front of God and everybody, you could probably say any number that rolls off the tongue and get it. Guitar players are largely a goofy lot. They think if so-and-so plays something, they need to as well, cost be damned. After all, how else will they ever sound good? And how do you think Gibson and Fender got so big? Hint: it wasn't quality or innovation.

There's a huge page of carved guitars here, if you'd like to see what others are doing. Death and patriotism seem to be common themes. If you follow the links, you might get a better feel for the market.

 

[StogiePatriot]

Using your numbers, you haven't got time to do 20/yr. You say you need 40+300 hours for a moderately carved guitar, which translates into 8 and a half weeks. At that rate, you could only make roughly 5 guitars a year working full time, and if you wanted a working wage, you'd have to charge $8,500 + materials. It's a $10K fiddle. You're out of "boutique" and into insane. Although, to be fair, look what Gibson gets for a Les Paul Custom. They're clearly tossed together like a burger and fries from a short-order cook at the local greasy spoon. Even the Koreans do a better job for an order of magnitude less money, but you can't buy a pack of gum for what they make an hour.

Back to you, though, between being "American Made" and unique, who knows what you could get? If you could get Steve Vai or somebody like that to play one in front of God and everybody, you could probably say any number that rolls off the tongue and get it. Guitar players are largely a goofy lot. They think if so-and-so plays something, they need to as well, cost be damned. After all, how else will they ever sound good? And how do you think Gibson and Fender got so big? Hint: it wasn't quality or innovation.

There's a huge page of carved guitars here, if you'd like to see what others are doing. Death and patriotism seem to be common themes. If you follow the links, you might get a better feel for the market.

Sorry if I didn't articulate properly; I believe that "if" I have a JEM like series of models that I can carve variations on, then two things will cut down the time significantly - a rough out duplicator and knowing the design.  I've carved the same piece essentially several times and improved on speed each go without a loss in quality.  Carving is like anything else; when you move from timidity to confidence, the BS goes away and you can rock & roll.

I've done the same and have about 100 examples of stuff that I find cool - Grey Van Kuilenburg's work especially reeks of originality and execution.  Mainly my challenge (aside from finding buyers) is knowing that which is marketable due to coolness, sentimentality or belief from the perspective of others.  I've bitten my own arse several times in the business world believing that something that I believed was extraordinary was too complicated, not in tune, etc with the purchasing public.  Thus I wanted to check with my new-found friends and associates what they thought was cool personally.  Maybe I'll devise a poll....

 

[Cagey]

I understand. And I don't mean to be a gloomy Gus. If you build it, they will come. There's always a market for unique. I'm pretty sure eBay isn't it, but who knows? I'm certainly not rich, so it's pretty clear I'm not an authority on how to get that way. I am sure if you concentrate on naked women, dragons, squirmy things, satan and/or things with horns, you'll find a ready audience. It'll just be a matter of exposure. Flowers? Not so much, although I understand the Canadians are into that sort of thing. It's just too bad there are only 14 of them <grin>

 

[StogiePatriot]

Flowers? Not so much, although I understand the Canadians are into that sort of thing. It's just too bad there are only 14 of them <grin>

:laughing7: and they all come to West Palm Beach when it gets white out....
Nekked women I can get behind!  Cheers gloomy gus

 

[Cagey]

Hehe! I know a few native Floridians, and they all seem to have a story/attitude about Canadians. I gotta think they're the least of your worries. Their pasty complexions, positive attitudes and friendly demeanors are much more of a problem for them than anybody they associate or come into contact with.

Of course, I could be biased. I was born in the US, but most of my relatives are Canadian and I've spent a lot of time in Canada. Born and raised in Detroit only a couple miles from the bridge. My next youngest brother and I used to ride our bikes over it all the time just for the thrill of it. You had a downhill run of a little over a mile, so it was as close to riding a motorcycle and cheating death as we could get at that age.

 

[Dan025]

if that dragon thing is real it's not playable. the 12th fret is not in the center of the nut and bridge. the bridge is too close unless there is a lot of lens distortion or the guitar is at a weird angle that im not noticing. i dunno what the appeal of a 36fret 7 string guitar would be especiallly with a such an unweildy body but to each there own.

 

[swarfrat]

12th fret matches up ok, but check out the fret spacing of the last 4 frets.

 

[Cagey]

All that, and it doesn't appear to have any fretboard under the 7th string.

 

[keeper006]

Yeah, it looks like you would be strumming on the neck with no space from the bridge to the pup to the fret...

 

[swarfrat]

I have seen a 36 fret single humbucker guitar once in person. And yeah, it was pretty much exactly that. I can't seem to find a pic online now. It was a low end knockoff, like a Hohner, or Cort or something. It had the Danelectro asian 'Sai'  style cutaway - absurdly long horns. 24 and up is pretty much only usable for gliss.

 

[StogiePatriot]

So the guitar that started this random thread in my mind came from the depths of the MLP forum:

Scatter Lee is the gent's handle and he first off is a country wizard shaman mechanic.  What this guy can do with a router and templates is spectacular and he's basically making it all up as he goes along (although I'm confident he's got a plan somewhere).
The body shape isn't that outrageous and the design isn't hyper innovative - but it is drop dead gorgeous, imminently playable and unique in every way.  He started with a premise of making a guitar that could fit into a standard LP case, but would lose the similarities beyond that and I think he succeeded.

I believe that 9 of 10 ideas are bunk and I'm going to have to chew through alot of crap to stumble upon a design that makes sense and is innovative in the same breath. [dreamer_drone_drivel] It's a goal of mine however to be able to sign my name with a design vs just the decal - there's certainly no retire at 50 money associated with this venture (or even quitting my day job anytime soon) - but the  idea has me by the short & wrinkled ones and tis something I must do. [/dreamer_drone_drivel]

 

[Cagey]

It's certainly a beautiful piece of work, well-considered and quite well done.

I think if it was mine it would be a wallflower, though. Y'know - a showpiece. I'd have a tough time playing it.

 

[jackthehack]

If you want something like that carved Tele in the first post, just take a body with you on a 7 day Jamaica ganga tour and you'll easily be able to find somebody that can carve anything you can sketch out for a few hundred bucks while you're there...

 

[Cagey]

Except you're likely to forget to take it home.