Behlen Master Gel

[Watchie]

I am about to apply a Behlen Master Gel finish to a strat build in progress.  Has anyone out there had experience with the MG, and if so, some questions:

1.  How many coats do you recommend?  Note that while I want a deep finish, and one that will not result in sand-throughs in the polishing stage, I know there is a point of diminishing returns and that the urethanes/polys can get smokey with too many coats.

2.  For scuffing between coats, would 000 synthetic be okay?  Or do you have an alternative recommendation?

3.  How much time did you allow between coats?

4.  How did you polish it out (I am considering the micro mesh, starting at 6000, but VERY concerned about avoiding sand-throughs.)



Thanks in advance for any and all input!

 

[pabloman]

Does it have directions??

 

[Watchie]

Of course, but those directions (1) do not answer all the questions I have posed nor (2) allow for "real world experience."  For instance, the directions may call for only two coats to promote an "ease" of finishing, but a master woodworker might recommend several more for a deeper, richer look.  Same comment with regard to polishing the finish, which is not addressed in the directions. Hence the posting.

 

[Cagey]

I'm still fighting with the Strat I'm going to put Master Gel on, so I don't have direct answers for you yet. But, there are some general truths you can consider. First, Master Gel is a polyurethane finish, and they aren't generally "built up" like you do with lacquer. 1 or 2 coats is typical. Also, you'd have to work the hell out of 6000 grit micro-finishing pads to achieve burn-through. Your arm will wear out long before the finish does.

The biggest problem with and failures in finishing usually result from poor prep work. The finish is, by definition, the last step, not an integral part of the process. Kinda like taking a shower after sex <grin>

All the grain filling, staining, sealing, sanding, etc. are what eats your life and wears you out. You want the body to be absolutely perfect before you finish it. Otherwise, you're wasting your time. The finish won't fix it, and the results will show that.

 

[pabloman]

Ok what I was getting at was the people that make the stuff generally know best. There are a bunch of different ways to do things and because it worked for one guy doesn't mean it will work for someone else. There are too many variables when you get into deviation from the recommended procedures.  If the directions state 2 coats then obviously start there. If it isn't built up satisfactorily do more. From what I've heard synthetic pads are ok to use. I would trust they are. As for final polishing it depends what the finish looks like before you start. You may need to start with 2000 and work your way up.

 

[Watchie]

Cagey:

Prep work is all good.  Filled the body using Timbermate three times to ensure a smooth surface, and followed that with Behlen dye coats AND once over with a Minwax stain to try to put some binder/sealer in place. (From past experience I have had the finish coat, when wiped on as opposed to sprayed, lift the dye and leave some "uncolored" areas.  Hopefully with a light hand this will help avoid that result.)  Overall the body looks good and ready now for the finish, but having not used the Master Gel before I want to avoid any known pitfalls.

Regarding the provided instructions, I have indeed been in touch with the Master Gel technical folks. They, just like us, work as much from experience as from the instructions.  For instance, the very helpful person I spoke with suggested three coats, and allowed that a couple more would not hurt if I wanted to add them for depth. He did warn, however, that too many could lead to a cloudy finish, but he wasn't sure just how many would be too many, so that is why I posted the question.  Same for the roughing of the surface between coats. He says he has used 320, which seems a bit abrasive to me, but also suggested 4/0 steel wool.  As he has not worked with the synthetic 000 pads, he was not sure if that would be too abrasive, so I posted that question too, to see if others had experience/suggestion. 

In any case, I am diving in today and should have some answers shortly, at least as to how my project works out.  For now, here are some scans of the body as it sits right now:

 

[Cagey]

I'll take your word on the prep work; the picture quality is reminiscent of some I've seen of the Loch Ness Monster...

Kinda leaves some open questions. Might want to invest $39.95 in a decent camera <grin>

In any event, it's likely you'll beat me to the punch on using the stuff, so I look forward to your reports.

 

[Watchie]

Old iphone.

Too lazy to get the better camera out...

 

[Cagey]

Off topic, but actually the sensors in most phones are good enough to produce some decent images. But, they're also very, very small and not very sensitive, so you need good lighting for them to return usable results. Even a cloudy day will have plenty enough good light, so a porch or a deck will make a great (read: free) studio for such a camera.

 

[Watchie]

That's good to know. I will give it a try before I apply the finish coats.

Thanks!

 

[Watchie]

First coat is on.  As I was advised would be the case, it went on a bit "stiff."  By that I mean it was not easy to work after a couple of minutes, unlike Tru Oil which can be wiped for quite a bit longer before starting to "gum up."  The folks at Behlen advise that this is due to it absorbing somewhat into the wood, and that subsequent coats will go on easier.  Notably, the finish is dull in several areas, but again, they advise that this, too, will be remedied with subsequent coats.

On a very positive note, so far the self-leveling is terrific.  I cannot find any wipe lines or the like.  As the gloss develops we'll see if this remains the case.

Regarding an earlier post, above, I found that the instructions on the plastic container actually differ from those on the spec sheet I was provided by the distributor. Not a big deal, but further supports the point that there are many ways to apply a finish, and experience is probably the best instruction of all.

Will keep the blog posted.

 

[Cagey]

I'm happy to hear about the "self-levelling" aspect. I'm so sick of sanding that even looking at a piece of sandpaper makes me wanna spit. What did you use to apply it with?

 

[Watchie]

Very old tee shirt.  Second coat just went on after a rub with 000 synthetic. Don't like how it goes on, though.  You have very little time to spread it out (like less than one minute, at a temp of about 90 degrees).  That nice sheen you get with Tru Oil that allows you to see where the finish is on and to some extent how "thick" turns matte very quickly with the MG.  And it does not seem to be a good idea to try to work it at all.  I am crossing my fingers that with additional coats this will get easier, but not sure.

I will keep you posted.

 

[Cagey]

Very old tee shirt.

Pocketless Ts need love, too! <grin>

I was going to use one of those wedge-shaped foam "brushes". It will almost certainly put on a thicker coat, so I wonder if that'll allow a little more working time? I tend to obsess over the horns on Strat bodies, so I can see me spending too much time there to the detriment of the rest of the body.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Update:
I've since switched to Min-Wax Wipe-On poly satin.
I'm finding it far superior to Master Gel. Ease of application and *especially durability and longevity.*

My experience has been MG is a no brainer ... as in don't think about it ... just get it on there and it'll take care of itself.
I had no trouble with 2nd, 3rd, 4th coats. Yea. it feels a bit different than the first but that didn't bother me.

 

[Watchie]

I will give your approach a shot.  So far the self leveling has been good, so next coat will go on fairly thick and I will see what happens.  BTW, what grit do you use between coats to rough up the surface and how "hard" do you go at it (i.e., just a rub or rub until any sheen is gone)?

 

[Steve_Karl]

I've been using light gray scotch-brite pads which are comparable to 800 - 1000 or #0000 steel wool.
I just do a light rub to make sure there are no dust bumps and to soften it a bit. I guess you could call that taking the sheen off.

And then a white scotch-brite 1200 - 1500 for a bit of a rub on the final coat.

http://www.sightsea.com/renders/scotch-brite_grit.pdf

 

[swarfrat]

I've been trying to level and I think I've been taking off too much between coats. More than once I've gone through, and it leaves me wondering if I shouldn't be doing less between coats.

 

[Steve_Karl]

I only gently rub it with the light gray to make sure there are no dust bumps and to just soften up the look of it a bit.
I use very little hand pressure. Kind of just the weight of my fingers.
I've never gone all the way through with the scotch brite pads.

 

[Watchie]

Not love'n the Master Gel.  I only get about 30 seconds to wipe it on an spread it before it gets gummy. And once that happens I seem to create wipe lines that don't go away.  Note that my garage is quite warm (90*+), but none of the info provided with the product suggests that could be a problem.  Additionally, the finish does not seem to build up any kind of depth in terms of bringing out the wood grain, unlike the Tru Oil which does.  The MG just seems to put on a thin satin coating, not much more.  Disappointed so far.

Any thoughts?