Behlen Master Gel

[Cagey]

Not love'n the Master Gel.  I only get about 30 seconds to wipe it on an spread it before it gets gummy. And once that happens I seem to create wipe lines that don't go away.  Note that my garage is quite warm (90*+), but none of the info provided with the product suggests that could be a problem.  Additionally, the finish does not seem to build up any kind of depth in terms of bringing out the wood grain, unlike the Tru Oil which does.  The MG just seems to put on a thin satin coating, not much more.  Disappointed so far.

Any thoughts?

Set 'er on far!

Ahem... I mean, incinerate the bitch.

Or, you could wait a week or so for it to get good and hard, then buff it up good. Lotta refraction occurs at the surface. You might be surprised at what kind of results you get.

 

[Watchie]

Interesting thought, and given I have sanded the damn thing back twice already a very compelling option.

THAT said, however, I must press on.  I was planning on two more coats, and my current mad scientist experiment is to try diluting the MG by about 20% with mineral spirits to see if that retards the drying process and better allows for the claimed "excellent self-leveling" properties.  If so, I will do that with at least the two coats and maybe three.

What could it hurt?

 

[Steve_Karl]

It made the grain pop on my black korina body. Of course I never tried tru oil so I have no comparison point, but I'm happy with it.
I never had any wipe lines ever or any problem getting it on with just one or 2 wipes per area. I never saw a need to go over it until it got gummy
so I guess I never felt it get gummy. It's always struck me as so easy it's a no brainer.

 

[Cagey]

I don't know. My understanding is that mineral spirits are oil-based. They're strongly advised against when cleaning heat sinks for that very reason. It's very thin stuff, so it gets into things on a molecular level and prevents thermal compounds from doing their thing as well as they could. I don't know what that means in terms of finishing, but it doesn't sound good.

However, most of what I see on the dreaded interwebs says polyurethane is normally thinned with mineral spirits, so maybe I'm worried about nothing. I also see where acetone (lacquer thinner) is used, but it flashes off pretty fast, and that's already a problem for you. Usually when things move too fast, you use a retarder. For poly, that might be something like this.... It also thins, so you kill twice birds with one times stone. May be more than you need, but it's not expensive.

I dunno. Worth a shot, unless somebody has a better idea.

 

[Watchie]

I whipped up a mess of MG and about 40% mineral spirits and it went on a lot better than the MG alone.  Still not a lot of work time, but better.  Notably, mineral spirits are recommended for clean up, so I suspect I am on to something.  My guess is that I may have an older bottle, and over time the product has lost some of whatever it is supposed to have that provides a reasonable dry time (the bottle shows it was a 2005 product run).  In any case, the overnight result after drying was good, so no harm, no foul.  Going forward, though, I am going to do the applications indoors where it is a lot cooler, and have added a squirt of mineral spirits to the bottle as a "precautionary" measure (about a 15% dilute).

The experiment continues...

 

[leftyaxeman]

I'm brand new here.  I've just started my first build, a superstrat,  & have used the Behlens Master Gel for 6 coats on a maple neck.  I've found it very easy to apply, just with a quick scuffing & 4 hrs between coats.  It gave me the satin feel I was looking for.  Now I'm about to start the body.  I've been reading this forum for the past month, figured I'd join & soak up the knowledge of the builders on here.  It's been very helpful so far.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Welcome lefty !

 

[leftyaxeman]

Welcome lefty !

Thanks, much appreciated.

 

[ezas]

Did you say 90 degrees? Like 90* Fahrenheit?

Too hot for finishing with something like a get finish. I have not used Master Gel but I have used 1-step gel finishes (on furniture, not guitars) and the results were not good when when it was too hot. Finally on the third coat I got something passable but more opaque than what I was going for.

 

[swarfrat]

At this point I'm really regretting not going the tru oil route. As the other poster said - lots of brush lines that are a bear to get out. If I could take it to bare wood without going too deep in the hard to reach spots I'd be tempted.

 

[Steve_Karl]

That's pretty amazing. I've never had a brush line with master gel ... well maybe because I don't use a brush ?

I rub it on with a rag.

 

[Watchie]

Well, my final conclusions with regard to the MG is that while a very durable finish, you just don't get the depth and sheen that Tru Oil provides.  And that said, I am now looking for how I can take what I have and get it to where I want to be.  I have tried the micro pads, but just couldn't get any real improvement.  Still just a satin finish at best.  Next step is to try an auto polish (white) and see what that does.  If no luck there, then I will have to seek out what finish I might be able to wipe or spray over the MG that would provide the shine I am looking for.

Thoughts?

 

[Steve_Karl]

Satin. Yes. That's what I've always expected from MG.

 

[Watchie]

And disappointedly, not a very rich satin.  To my eye the finish just sorta lies there. 

In any case, the polish did not improve it much.  I just spoke to one of their technical reps and he advises that pretty much no amount of polishing will get to much of a gloss finish, which leads to my having to overcoat it with something else.  He suggested the possibility of their "rock hard" table top finish, or alternatively a lacquer.  Anyone have other suggestions?

 

[Steve_Karl]

I've never done tru-oil so I've no basis for comparison.
My main wants were easy, quick and durable, and the resulting look doesn't bother me.

I hope you find a way to get it to look the way you want.

 

[Watchie]

This build is for my Grandson, so how it looks in the end is critical for me. 

For the others on this string, one option I am considering is a rough-up of the MG (it is a "blended urethane" finish, whatever the f*** that means) and try a Tru Oil finish over it.  Any thoughts?  Note that Tru Oil is a layering finish, so once it grabs on to the base, it is layering over itself.  The question is whether it will grab on to the MG.

 

[Cagey]

Not having tried it, I can't say, but putting Tru-Oil over polyurethane is probably like putting Valvoline 10W-30 over Lexan.

Shellac is supposed to make for a good barrier if you want to change horses in midstream. That would let you put some lacquer on, which you can definitely sand/rub/polish to a high gloss.

 

[Watchie]

You may be right, but I may still give it a shot, at least on a small area I could sand back.  Indeed, I may call the TO folks for their guidance, too.

Any thought of an alternative finish that would give me the gloss I am looking for over the MG?

 

[Cagey]

I've seen some pretty nice Tru-Oil finishes, but I don't think there's any getting a mirror finish out of it. You can get a gloss, but it's not like you'd see from poly or nitro. Then, when you change horses again, you'll still have to apply some sort of barrier between the poly and whatever final finish you use. May as well just do it now and get it over with, unless you want to spend the money to get the gear to shoot another poly finish. Guaranteed to look good, but it'll cost you.

 

[Watchie]

I spoke with the TO folks and they advise that their product would not properly adhere over a poly or urethane finish, even if roughed up.  That led me back to the Minwax wipe-on, which actually has gone on quite well.  So far I am impressed, certainly more so than with the Master Gel.

I do have one issue, though.  The back of the guitar is dyed/stained black, but there are some areas that just did not absorb the color.  My thinking now is to perhaps apply a decal, which would cover some of these imperfections and distract the eye from the others.  I am assuming that this can still be done over the Minwax poly, with a rough up and a top coat.  Am I correct about this?  Any tips?


Thanks