B and G strings bend out of tune easily - what should I do?

[mullyman]

Well, for what it's worth, my first Strat build from Warmoth, the cherry burst, would always go out of tune on the B string when bending. I tried everything under the sun, including lubricating the nut, filing the nut, changing the nut etc... It never stopped. And yes, they were locking tuners.
MULLY

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

A snagging nut or saddle would make them go sharp after bending, so it's not that.

If it only happens on new strings then it's the pre-stretching thing. If it happens all the time then it might be the tuners.

Uh, a bend, even though raising the pitch, is actually stretching the string.  On a snagging nut, it does not slide back over the nut to pitch; it would be flat.

 

[Ddbltrbl]

Does the guitar remain flat after you bend, or does it sometimes shift back towards where you tuned it?
I believe that both a snagging nut or saddle can cause the strings to go flat after you bend or use the trem. But, if the tuning is varying (up & down) as you use it, then I would suspect the nut. However, if it goes flat and stays then I would suspect the saddles. Snagging saddles are rarer than nuts, but the more likely culprit if string remains flat once it shifts flat the first time.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

A snagging nut or saddle would make them go sharp after bending, so it's not that.

If it only happens on new strings then it's the pre-stretching thing. If it happens all the time then it might be the tuners.

Uh, a bend, even though raising the pitch, is actually stretching the string.  On a snagging nut, it does not slide back over the nut to pitch; it would be flat.

Gah, you're right. I was thinking of strings going sharp after a trem dip.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Common reasons for inconsistent tuning:

• A tuner that doesn't hold position due to slack/backlash/poor winding

I had this issue with 1 Shaler mini locking and it was due to the fact that the screw, the one that goes through the knob and adjusts the tension of the tuner, was too loose.

HOWEVER ... it didn't *feel* loose, the way all other tuners have felt to me in the past, when they need adjusted.
It felt just like the other Shaler mini ones on the guitar that were performing correctly.
BUT ...
Tightening the screw made the tuner perform perfectly, where as before tightening, the back lash was enough to drive me to start looking for a binding nut issue.

I actually started filing the edges of the nut trying to fix the issue.
When the nut file job didn't fix the (supposed) binding issue, I had to, logically, look else where, and found the adjustment screw issue.

so .. BEWARE ... the Shaler mini  is a tricky little devil if not properly adjusted.

 

[Steve_Karl]

The B and G strings on my Strat go out of tune pretty quickly when I bend them - way more than any of my other strings.  It's not a huge problem, but it still annoys me.  Any ideas on what the problem is and how to fix this?  I have Gotoh tuners, but they're not locking or anything.

Are you stretching them into place when you put them on?

I always have the guitar plugged into the (electronic tuning device) tuner and stretch them until thy stay in tune for at least a 2 fret bend.

 

[Cagey]

Common reasons for inconsistent tuning:

• A tuner that doesn't hold position due to slack/backlash/poor winding

I had this issue with 1 Shaler mini locking and it was due to the fact that the screw, the one that goes through the knob and adjusts the tension of the tuner, was too loose.

HOWEVER ... it didn't *feel* loose, the way all other tuners have felt to me in the past, when they need adjusted.
It felt just like the other Shaler mini ones on the guitar that were performing correctly.
BUT ...
Tightening the screw made the tuner perform perfectly, where as before tightening, the back lash was enough to drive me to start looking for a binding nut issue.

I actually started filing the edges of the nut trying to fix the issue.
When the nut file job didn't fix the (supposed) binding issue, I had to, logically, look else where, and found the adjustment screw issue.

so .. BEWARE ... the Shaler mini  is a tricky little devil if not properly adjusted.

That probably wasn't any kind of backlash like you get on cheapies like Klusons or some other half-assed parts out of the Pacific Rim. The button was probably turning a couple degrees on the worm gear shaft. That screw does nothing to adjust any internal tension. It simply holds the button tight to the shaft.

Backlash comes from a mismatch in the mesh between the worm and pinion gear, which may be due to poor gear machining, inaccurate mounting, a loose pinion, too much slack in the worm bearing points, etc. those causes and a loose button would feel the same, but the base cause for the inaccuracy would be different.

I'd be surprised to see bothersome backlash (and never have) in a Schaller or Sperzel part as they're cast and machined to pretty close tolerances.

The way I was trained to tune was to decide if the string is off, and if so, use the peg to flat it dramatically then wind it up to pitch. That pulls it through the nut and takes up any tension in the string winds on the peg as well as pulling any backlash in the tuner up to where the gears are solildly meshed. Stretch the snot out of it, which will almost certainly flat it some more, then wind it up to pitch again. At that point, everything should be as tight as can be and the string should stay in tune for a bit.

Of course, the strings themselves stretch - it's not always the hardware's fault - so tuning doesn't last. But, if everything's tight, you ought to be good for a while unless you're incredibly anal or playing at outrageous volumes.

With proper lockers from a reliable source, much of that goes away. You don't have any winds on the peg and the gears mesh tightly, so you can make minor adjustments without playing any games. It's as good as having a locking nut, so the only adjustments you have to make have to do with the string stretching.

 

[Steve_Karl]

The button was probably turning a couple degrees on the worm gear shaft. That screw does nothing to adjust any internal tension. It simply holds the button tight to the shaft.

That's good to know.
Thanks.

 

[hannaugh]

Okay all, I have inspected the Strat and did a little work on the nut and lubricated it.  I only had a couple minutes to play because I have to go to work, but it seems to have fixed the problem.  I will play for an extended period tonight to see for sure if it did the trick. 

 

[pabloman]

Those screws do adjust backlash. When you tighten them it brings the worm gear up towards the button increasing its pressure on the ring gear. It does more than just hold the button on. At least on Schallers and most clones.

 

[croquet hoop]

Okay all, I have inspected the Strat and did a little work on the nut and lubricated it.  I only had a couple minutes to play because I have to go to work, but it seems to have fixed the problem.  I will play for an extended period tonight to see for sure if it did the trick.

Nice to hear it was probably just that. In addition, you might want to lubricate the string tree (unless it's a roller tree), since it can catch the string just like the nut does.

 

[hannaugh]

Good idea, I didn't even think of that.  Thanks!

 

[-CB-]

All of these ideas..... good ones, should be put into perspective.

The vast majority of problems with bending and not returning to pitch are either - nut slots, or the way the string is attached to the peg.

Can't say it enough - minimal wraps on the post.  You can get by with very few, as little as 1-1/2 wraps, if you do it correctly. 

Second is the shape of the nut slots.  Be surprised at how many are are not U shaped, but V shaped (incorrectly).  Any V at the bottom is gonna kill ya with bending.  Factory Gibson strung nuts are noted. for V shaped slots.