Another Angled Neck Pocket Problem? ***UPDATE (page 3)***
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Cagey
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Raising the mounting posts and/or loosening the springs for the vibrato will both raise the action. Unless the neck relief is ridiculous right now, taking some out won't lower the action by much. Certainly not enough to compensate for the amount of change that appears necessary to get that bridge floating at a useful point.
Without being able to inspect the thing, it's tough to say, but it looks to me like the neck is almost certainly going to have to be shimmed at the bridge end of the pocket, or the pocket floor re-cut at an angle.
Without being able to inspect the thing, it's tough to say, but it looks to me like the neck is almost certainly going to have to be shimmed at the bridge end of the pocket, or the pocket floor re-cut at an angle.
Cagey said:
OK, guys, I think this was an easy fix. A combination of loosening the springs, raising the bridge just a tad, and readjusting the relief in the neck has allowed the trem to float just enough to do flutters and not slam back down onto the body when releasing from a dive. The action is still very playable. The neck relief initially was not quite ridiculous, but certainly more than I usually see. I have no buzz up or down the fretboard.
Thanks for the tips!
UPDATE: I had thought this was fixed. Life has been crazy around here lately and I haven't had any time to speak of for guitar or for forum participation. I got a chance to take a look at it today. With everything else optimized, the action is still much higher than I would like. The 12th fret low E is 1/8" and the 22nd fret is 3/16". That's more like a slide guitar!
For point of reference, my other VIP with a recessed Floyd has action of 1/16" at the 12th fret and about 3/32" at the 22nd fret. This is how I like my guitars set up.
I sent an email to Warmoth this morning about this. I was a bit disappointed in their reply.
Sent email:
I have a question for you regarding the VIP body that was a part of this order. It took a couple of months before I had time to assemble this guitar, and then another month before I had time to take it to my local tech to have the frets dressed and the final setup done. This is why I am just now getting around to writing you about this.
How can I tell if the body actually has an angled neck pocket as was ordered? I ask because unless the Floyd is lowered all the way so that the tail of it actually sits on the body, there is no way to get the action even close to playable. When I got it back from my local tech, he had lowered the bridge so that it was sitting on the body. The action was OK, but not as low as I have with my other guitars. When I raised it a bit so that it floats about 1/16" above the body (not enough to pull up, but enough to flutter), the action is almost unplayable. I tried adjusting the neck a bit, changing spring tension, anything that I could do to try to get the action down a bit while maintaining that 1/16" float above the body. There is just no way to get good action on it.
Reply:
Thank you for your order with Warmoth Guitar Products.
The angled pocket is part of the CNC program.
A front or rear shim may be necessary to achieve your desired action.
_______________________________________________________________
So it looks like I am going to have to shim it. Honestly, I am not very pleased with the reply. Those of you who know Warmoth's pricing will recognize that neither the body nor the neck were inexpensive. At those prices, I would expect the optimal action to be in the center of the adjustment ranges.
Any thoughts?
For point of reference, my other VIP with a recessed Floyd has action of 1/16" at the 12th fret and about 3/32" at the 22nd fret. This is how I like my guitars set up.
I sent an email to Warmoth this morning about this. I was a bit disappointed in their reply.
Sent email:
I have a question for you regarding the VIP body that was a part of this order. It took a couple of months before I had time to assemble this guitar, and then another month before I had time to take it to my local tech to have the frets dressed and the final setup done. This is why I am just now getting around to writing you about this.
How can I tell if the body actually has an angled neck pocket as was ordered? I ask because unless the Floyd is lowered all the way so that the tail of it actually sits on the body, there is no way to get the action even close to playable. When I got it back from my local tech, he had lowered the bridge so that it was sitting on the body. The action was OK, but not as low as I have with my other guitars. When I raised it a bit so that it floats about 1/16" above the body (not enough to pull up, but enough to flutter), the action is almost unplayable. I tried adjusting the neck a bit, changing spring tension, anything that I could do to try to get the action down a bit while maintaining that 1/16" float above the body. There is just no way to get good action on it.
Reply:
Thank you for your order with Warmoth Guitar Products.
The angled pocket is part of the CNC program.
A front or rear shim may be necessary to achieve your desired action.
_______________________________________________________________
So it looks like I am going to have to shim it. Honestly, I am not very pleased with the reply. Those of you who know Warmoth's pricing will recognize that neither the body nor the neck were inexpensive. At those prices, I would expect the optimal action to be in the center of the adjustment ranges.
Any thoughts?
Jesse said:
I appreciate the input, Jesse. No offense, but that just seems so wrong. Not that you are wrong, just that shimming would need to be done on a brand new guitar conceptually just seems wrong, like a way to compensate for slop in the manufacturing. With CNC, there should be no slop. This makes me think their program needs a bit of tweaking.
I was reading about neck shims today. I am no expert, by any means, but what I had read stated that a shim should be wedge-shaped and cover the entire floor of the neck pocket. If someone only put a shim at one end, there would be a gap between the neck and pocket of the body. The author stated that, over time, this gap encourages the neck to bow over the pocket, making the upper 6 or so frets uneven. To correct this would require removing the frets, replaning the fretboard, then a refret.
Perhaps I have been spoiled by Warmoth. None of my other ones ever needed a neck pocket shim.
Cagey
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I think what they're saying in their reply is you get an angled neck pocket automatically with that body style + carved top (because it's part of the CNC program). On the site, it says:
Based on how I'm reading that, if you deliberately ordered an angled pocket the line item would be ignored as it's an inherent characteristic of that build. In any event, it would seem that there's no way a carved-top VIP should leave the factory without an angled neck pocket.
If you wanna measure it, probably the easiest way would be to lay the guitar on its back on a known-flat surface, and measure from the surface to the top of the fretboard at the 1st and 12th frets. (May have to hang the headstock over an edge to clear the tuner bodies.) If there's no angle, those two dimensions should be roughly the same, give or take a few thou for relief and contour change. If it's angled back, the 1st fret height will be lower than the 12th by an appreciable amount. In fact, you probably won't even need to measure it; it's quite obvious to the eye as it ends up being 1/2" or better drop. Now that I look at it, I gotta think if that pocket wasn't angled you'd have a helluva string height problem. You'd be able to drive a truck under the strings. Judging by the numbers you're giving I'd say if it's off, it's not by much.
I hate to see shims installed in neck pockets, but I'm afraid because of that carved top that the only safe way to change the floor angle of that pocket is gonna be with a CNC machine. It doesn't sound like Warmoth wants to admit to an anomaly here, so that option is probably out. So, shim it.
Based on how I'm reading that, if you deliberately ordered an angled pocket the line item would be ignored as it's an inherent characteristic of that build. In any event, it would seem that there's no way a carved-top VIP should leave the factory without an angled neck pocket.
If you wanna measure it, probably the easiest way would be to lay the guitar on its back on a known-flat surface, and measure from the surface to the top of the fretboard at the 1st and 12th frets. (May have to hang the headstock over an edge to clear the tuner bodies.) If there's no angle, those two dimensions should be roughly the same, give or take a few thou for relief and contour change. If it's angled back, the 1st fret height will be lower than the 12th by an appreciable amount. In fact, you probably won't even need to measure it; it's quite obvious to the eye as it ends up being 1/2" or better drop. Now that I look at it, I gotta think if that pocket wasn't angled you'd have a helluva string height problem. You'd be able to drive a truck under the strings. Judging by the numbers you're giving I'd say if it's off, it's not by much.
I hate to see shims installed in neck pockets, but I'm afraid because of that carved top that the only safe way to change the floor angle of that pocket is gonna be with a CNC machine. It doesn't sound like Warmoth wants to admit to an anomaly here, so that option is probably out. So, shim it.
So doing a thread recap...........at one point your action was fine but the back of the trem was resting on the body which you did not like......now after some adjustments the action is too high? I would loosen the spring claw and lower the bridge. After tuning back up this should solve your problem (as long as there is room to go down). Take it slow, it might take a couple of tries. 
ccasion14:
ccasion14:
Cagey
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DocNrock said:
Perhaps I'm not imaginative enough, but I have a hard time seeing how the neck heel could get deformed to the point where fretboard correction would be required. However, I do agree that ideally, the shim should be wedge-shaped. This would be to maintain a good contact between the neck and the body, not to maintain any structural integrity. An air gap is gonna eat some sustain and perhaps change the frequency response slightly.
I don't know where you'd get such a thing, though. I've never seen it done on a guitar. Generally, a short, wide strip is placed between the neck mounting holes closer to the bridge and the bridge side of the pocket. How thick depends on how much you want to move the headstock, and I don't have any numbers for you. When I've been forced to do it in the past, I've cut a slice off the edge of a credit card. Might need two.
pabloman said:So doing a thread recap...........at one point your action was fine but the back of the trem was resting on the body which you did not like......now after some adjustments the action is too high? I would loosen the spring claw and lower the bridge. After tuning back up this should solve your problem (as long as there is room to go down). Take it slow, it might take a couple of tries.
Thanks, Pabloman, but I have already done all of that. I even tried adjusting the springs so that, rather than being level with the body, the base plate of the bridge was angled slightly towards the neck. This slightly lowered the saddles relative to the bridge base plate being parallel with the body and raised the part touching the body up off the body (ever so slightly). Neck readjustment was then done. That is actually where I am now, with the action measurements I gave in my "update" post.
Cagey said:
In the article, the author shows the reader how to make a wedge-shaped shim out of maple that covers the floor of the neck pocket. Here is a link to the article: http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/19686-guitar-shop-101-how-to-shim-a-bolt-on-neck
Cagey said:I think what they're saying in their reply is you get an angled neck pocket automatically with that body style + carved top (because it's part of the CNC program). On the site, it says:
Tomorrow, I will compare this VIP with my other that has a recessed Floyd. Both have contoured heels. I should be able to measure the differences in the thickness of the wood that makes up the neck pocket at the bridge end (thickest) and the neck end (thinnest). The difference should be greater on Ansel.
However, reading through your posting of the description on Warmoth's site led me to think of something. I did not order "angled neck pocket" as a standalone modification. What I ordered was the "non-recessed Floyd with angled neck pocket." But in reading what you put in your reply, Warmoth uses a smaller angle for the Floyd than they do with a TOM. I wonder if the angle used should be different between a flat top and a carved top body? It seems to me a carved top would require a greater angle than a flat top. One would think Warmoth would already know this and have two separate CNC programs for this type of Floyd mounting, flat top and carved top. I wonder if they accidentally picked the flat top program. Alternatively, could it be that ordering a carved top with a non-recessed Floyd is that uncommon that a program that takes the carved top into account has not been made, and the few that have been ordered were just shimmed by the owner or just accepted, as is?
Interestingly, I just measured the height of the low E string from the body at the saddle on two different carved top guitars, Ansel (non-recessed Floyd), and Daisy Duke (TOM). On both, the string height is is 5/8" at the saddle. So, if a lesser angle was used on Ansel relative to the angle on Daisy Duke, it would stand to reason that the "small angle" used for Floyds is not adequate and the "big angle" usually cut for the fixed bridges should have been used.
I need to do some more measuring tomorrow comparing three different carved tops: Ansel (VIP, non-recessed Floyd), DD (Velocity, TOM), and Bungle (VIP, recessed Floyd).
All of the above is essentially academic, however. It is now obvious to me that Ansel would need a neck shim to keep the non-recessed Floyd. Rather than shim, I think I would prefer converting it to a recessed Floyd. I'm pretty sure my local tech could handle that. The only reason I ordered the body with a non-recessed Floyd was just to make another difference between this VIP and my other one. Other than that, I had no significant reason to want it non-recessed. Had I known what I know now, I definitely would have ordered the body routed for a recessed Floyd. It would have been $10 cheaper, too. :laughing7:
I could see the non-recessed option working out better on a flat topped guitar.
Any thoughts on the above? Thanks.
Is the front of the bridge bottomed out yet? If you still have room to move keep going. If the action and playability were good before then the neck adjustment shouldn't be necessary. Make one adjustment at a time. Set your neck relief first and don't touch it again. Then tackle the bridge. It will most likely have to be set with a slight rake to it. How is the bridge radius? Is that set for the neck you have?
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