Another Angled Neck Pocket Problem? ***UPDATE (page 3)***

[DocNrock]

Fdesalvo apparently had problems with the neck pocket on his recent Velocity (Trinity) build such that the TOM is not providing enough counter-tension on the strings to keep them in the saddles.  My recent VIP build (Ansel) might have a similar problem.

My VIP has a non-recessed Floyd Rose, which is supposed to use an angled neck pocket similar to bodies that use a non-recessed TOM.  I did not notice this when assembling the guitar, but after picking it up from my local tech (level/crown/polish the frets, intonate, and neck adjustment/setup), it seems the base of the Floyd Rose is actually resting on the body.  I'm pretty certain that, even in a non-recessed application, it still is supposed to be a floating tremolo (just with limited pull-up abilities).  This is the first non-recessed Floyd guitar that I've built, but I think if the neck pocket was properly angled, the Floyd should be above the body and floating between string and spring tensions.

I guess the first step is to return it to the tech to see if it can be corrected in the setup.  If not, either a call to Warmoth and/or neck pocket shims might be the next step.

Thoughts? 

 

[dmraco]

Loosen the springs...it will come up. 

Usually non-recessed have the backs locked on the body, this provides certain advantages around tuning and stabilization but you loose the ability to pull up.

Recessed are designed to be floating, they are not as stable as one with the rear resting on the body but offers more of a range.

Take the back cover off and ease our the screws.  This will allow the floyd to come off the body.  Obviously you will need to re-tune.  This should not effect your action.

The tech probably set it up that way because it is usually SOP for non recessed floyds.

 

[Cagey]

Outside of the thin shims used for radius matching, Floyd saddles aren't height adjustable. So if the base plate is down on the body to get the strings at the height they need to be on the neck, you've run out of adjustment range. A shim in the neck pocket would work, although it's not ideal. The proper angle on the floor of the pocket is the thing to have, so the neck is tight to the body.

 

[DocNrock]

Loosen the springs...it will come up. 

Usually non-recessed have the backs locked on the body, this provides certain advantages around tuning and stabilization but you loose the ability to pull up.

Recessed are designed to be floating, they are not as stable as one with the rear resting on the body but offers more of a range.

Take the back cover off and ease our the screws.  This will allow the floyd to come off the body.  Obviously you will need to re-tune.  This should not effect your action.

The tech probably set it up that way because it is usually SOP for non recessed floyds.

That is interesting.  I have not heard of that before.  I was fairly certain a floating trem is a floating trem, regardless as to whether it is recessed or not.  But your points are well-taken.  One thing I did not mention that probably does play a role here is that the VIP is a carved top.  But still, I would expect the trem to be floating. 

I will take a closer look when I get time and see if I can get it up off the body and then readjust everything else around that.

Thanks to you and Cagey for the input.

 

[Cagey]

I was fairly certain a floating trem is a floating trem, regardless as to whether it is recessed or not. 

That's right. All my vibrato bridges float, whether they're recessed or not. But, DMRACO is right - many or even most guys who surface mount do so in order to use over-tightened springs holding the thing taut to the body so you don't pull the thing out of tune when you're bending or breaking strings. No pulling notes sharp with the wang bar, and you'll often hear banging noises from the thing slamming home, but no loss of tune with the loss of a string.

Yeah, it's like hurricane insurance in Arizona, but people worry about funny things sometimes.

Once you do get the thing shimmed or the pocket re-cut so the neck is angled properly, you may want to consider adding the missing springs to improve repeatability. Won't make it any tighter as it's a balance thing anyway (if you have 100lbs of string pull, you need 100lbs of spring pull, whether it's one or 10 springs), but averaging the load over more springs provides for a much more reliable return to neutral.

 

[pabloman]

Is the entire trem sitting on the body or is it just the back of the baseplate? It might not need a shim or neck pocket work.

 

[DocNrock]

Is the entire trem sitting on the body or is it just the back of the baseplate? It might not need a shim or neck pocket work.

I will try to post up a picture later on today.  It is just the back of the baseplate.

 

[dmraco]

with the exception of the floating issue, how is the action other wise?

 

[DocNrock]

with the exception of the floating issue, how is the action other wise?

Otherwise, it seems to play well, with good action. 

To clarify, I almost never pull up on my Floyds, only vibrato or dive bomb.  What I don't want it for this the trem to keep slamming into the body over time and damaging the finish. 

I will try to make some adjustments and see if I can keep the action good and get the bridge to float.  If that doesn't work, then I'll take it back to the tech. 

Anyway, here is a photo.  It is kind of hard to see, but you can see where the base plate is resting on the body.  I think this would not be an issue if the body was not a carved-top.

 

[pabloman]

It's hard to tell for sure on my phone but she looks good to me Doc. Do you have a pic from the side? That would help too.

 

[dmraco]

side and front.  How far off the body in the front?

If there is enough clearance in the front for it to diver properly, you could leave it.
If you want the ability to pull up, just loosen the spring as stated.

 

[Jesse]

Even if you don't pull up ever, having the trem floating gives you the ability to flutter the trem by just snapping the bar down and releasing it.  The trem will oscillate right around its zero position.

 

[GoDrex]

having a floyd non-floating is pretty common - it's what lets EVH's D-tuna device work.

here's an interesting bit of info from the Wolfgang manual:

BRIDGE
EVH® edition Floyd Rose® w/D-tuna. Hardened steel baseplate, EVH® branded, exclusive to Wolfgang®.
NOTE: The EVH Floyd Rose® is not set up to float. The non-floating set up is concurrent with Eddie Van
Halen’s set up specs. The non-floating set up allows the bridge to sit flat on the body, which maximizes
the resonating capabilities of the instrument.


so it's better for your tone, from the man himself

edit - more tips from the Wolfgang manual:

3. Spring Tension: As noted, the EVH® Floyd Rose® is deliberately set up so you can only dive the
strings down rather than pull them up.
Players prefer a variety of spring tensions. It’s up to you and your taste. Here’s how to set the tension as
light as possible—then adjust to your preference:
• Set the spring tension just tight enough for the bridge to sit flat on the body when the guitar is
tuned to pitch.
• Then bend the high E and the B as far as you physically can and adjust the spring tension so
the bridge does not raise up off the body while you do so.


--------------
edit - Eddie is full of interesting info:

General care instructions are included in
this manual, however the way you care for your instrument is a matter of personal preference. What I do
is very basic and simple. I never clean my guitar, I never clean the strings. Dirty strings tend to have a
warmer tone. Brand new or cleaned strings have a brighter sound–again, it depends on your preference.
I especially never clean the neck. I prefer my natural skin oil to condition the neck as opposed to mineral
oil. It will take longer for your natural skin oil to condition the neck versus using mineral oil. Like fine
wine, it takes time. Depending on how much you play, if you play a lot, in about 8 to 10 months you will
have the smoothest playing neck you’ve ever laid your hands on. I don’t polish my guitars either because
I prefer the guitar to age naturally.


remember to wash up after playing one of Ed's guitars.

 

[DocNrock]

side and front.  How far off the body in the front?

If there is enough clearance in the front for it to diver properly, you could leave it.
If you want the ability to pull up, just loosen the spring as stated.

On the side and in front, it is over the cutout, so there is nothing on the body there.  It can easily dive.  I'm less concerned about being able to pull up than I am to have it slam back into the body after diving.  Also, I do like to do some fluttering, as Jesse mentioned.

@GoDrex:  Old friend, how are you?  Thanks for the EVH commentary.  Interesting stuff.  But I don't have a D-tuna, so I want it to float.  :laughing7:

Agreed, Wash hands after playing Eddie's guitar! 

 

[Jesse]

Looking at the pic again I see what you're talking about. What I think you're calling the base plate is different than what other people are calling it. The black part has the knife edges looks correct. It's parallel to the body as it should be. But I can see where part of the trem could be touching the body. The only way to fix this would be to have the trem sit higher, either with a neck shim or by changing the neck angle.

 

[DocNrock]

Looking at the pic again I see what you're talking about. What I think you're calling the base plate is different than what other people are calling it. The black part has the knife edges looks correct. It's parallel to the body as it should be. But I can see where part of the trem could be touching the body. The only way to fix this would be to have the trem sit higher, either with a neck shim or by changing the neck angle.

It is the tail part of the base plate that is resting on the guitar body in the center, only.  It is hard to see in the picture.  There is more relief in the neck than usual.  I think I can raise the bridge with the two posts, then take some relief out of the neck to bring the action down.  If that doesn't work, then yes, I would need to do something with the neck mount. 

 

[dmraco]

Looking at the pic again I see what you're talking about. What I think you're calling the base plate is different than what other people are calling it. The black part has the knife edges looks correct. It's parallel to the body as it should be. But I can see where part of the trem could be touching the body. The only way to fix this would be to have the trem sit higher, either with a neck shim or by changing the neck angle.

It is the tail part of the base plate that is resting on the guitar body in the center, only.  It is hard to see in the picture.  There is more relief in the neck than usual.  I think I can raise the bridge with the two posts, then take some relief out of the neck to bring the action down.  If that doesn't work, then yes, I would need to do something with the neck mount.

Adjust your neck.  I would not raise the bridge just yet.  I still think your angle is fine.

 

[Jesse]

I think he needs to raise the bridge in order to get it to float at all.

 

[dmraco]

I think he needs to raise the bridge in order to get it to float at all.

I would agree in the back.  I need to see a photo of the front.

POST A PHOTO....LOL :icon_biggrin:

 

[DocNrock]

I think he needs to raise the bridge in order to get it to float at all.

I would agree in the back.  I need to see a photo of the front.

POST A PHOTO....LOL :icon_biggrin:

Hahaha!  The only reason I haven't posted a photo of the front is that it looks normal and just fine from the front.  In the front, the bridge is over the cutout for the trem.