almost HNGD

[Overseasguitar]

Hello everybody, greatings from the other side of the Atlantic. I have been snooping around this board for some time and have seen some nice partsocasters and other guitars assembled from warmoth parts. I have made some guitars from scratch myself, but never seem to end up where CNC made parts and professionally finishend product do. Since I am not that brand conscious, as long as it functions perfectly (I am picky in that regard), sounds goed and looks great, I recently pulled the trigger and bought a showcase neck and body.

The neck looks and feels great, nice quartersawn maple, no flaws as far as I can see. The body is gorgeous as well. Light mahogany, great flame maple top, great finish, but that is where the story takes a nose dive.

I will not bother everybody with all the details, but I noticed some issues, measuring up the body before I put it together
1. There was some excess routing in the tremolo hole into the barre wood, deeper than the maple top (this is a symptom I think)
2. The hole for the tremolo insert on the bass side is further from the centerline than the treble side, which causes the holes to be 2.25" instead of 2.2" apart (see specifications on the warmoth website)

I returned it to warmoth, and got a note that the body is according to spec and within tolerances and that I can have a refund or an Exchange body. They sent photographic proof to underline their findings. Sinds I aready paid customs duty I was invested and had them ship over another body. This one was as gorgeous, but had exactly the same problem. I used two different caliphers, a ruler and the results were the same: 2.25" apart instead of 2.2", and excess routing. I checken with my 2.2" drop in remplacement (Gotoh 510) for the 2 point fender strat trem and it will not function.
In contact with warmoth they refer to the first body and that the second body should be the same, so they consider it according to spec and within tolerances. I should not focus on the measurements...

Obviously I do not agree and made a video showing how I determinered the distantance between the bushings and am very curious how you view this situation.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bABaXjG9_Ns

off course this is not all communcation (it is still long), but I find it distastefull to go into details. However, let me compliment Brian for his professionalism and patience. I was not the easiest customer. Let me stipulate it is not my intention to slander warmoth, but I seem to have a non solution disagreement with warmoth and want to know where I stand from a more neutraal perspective. If I am wrong I will delete this topic.

 

[stratamania]

Greetings from the same side of the Atlantic.

The excess routing you mention of the body versus the maple top. It isn't as the body is routed for a tremolo. When you order from the showcase you can choose between various tremolos, and then the top is routed and holes for posts or screws is done.  You also need more space at the bottom of the rout for the tremolo to function otherwise it would hit the back wall too quickly.

Per the caliper measurement, it is metal fitted into wood. And wood can shift so I would expect a degree of tolerance. I am not sure from the video how accurate your measurement is.

Even if it is assumed that the caliper measurement is reasonably accurate, have you actually tried fitting the tremolo to see if it works ?

A Gotoh 510 is 56 mm between the pivot points which equates to 2.20472 " which slightly is over 2.2 ".

I have a Warmoth Strat with a 510 tremolo on it but I cant measure it as I live in two countries and I am in one and it in the other.

My view is that you may be over thinking it if you have not tried to see if it works.

 

[Overseasguitar]

thanks for the answer. I did try to fit it, and it dit not. The edgeknifes rest on the curved side of the edge knive against the stud. So there is no flat contact. my measurements are accurate, I tried so many methods...

besides: I can see it being 0.1 mm inaccurate due to metal to wood, but 1.3 mm...? besides, it looks like crap, even if by some magic it would work

 

[stratamania]

OK, I am not sure what to suggest.  With the one I had I fitted the bushings after checking everything aligned then fitted the 510 and all was well. I did not measure it as I had no need to do so.

A possibility might be another tremolo the Supervee two post mount bladerunner could be a possibility as it has adapters to fit the tremolo but it does not pivot on them.

 

[Overseasguitar]

I was mainly looking for input whether this is acceptable or not, whether I am correct and how to correct this. I might have been clearer on that ;-)

 

[Logrinn]

I always thought that the design of that (and similar) trem bridge was to accommodate it for different bridge post widths (that is the width between the two posts). Since one side has a rounded knife edge that fixates the bridge on the one post, the other straight knife edge can find its "place" on the other bridge post even if that post is several mm off to one side. That way it wouldn't matter what kind of bridge-post-hole-width your guitar might be equipped with.
And looking on Gotoh's specs for that bridge, with a specified bridge post width of 56 mm, I can't help but wonder if that shouldn't read 56-58 mm or some such.
Just my 2 cents ...

 

[Overseasguitar]

This trem is exaclty the same as the standard 2 post fender trem, only higher quality. It does have some tolerance, but no more than 0,5mm on either side, not 1,3 mm on one side.

 

[stratamania]

Logrinn, the bridge you are describing is the Gotoh Wilkinson, the OP is referring to a Gotoh 510 tremolo variant where both sides are similar to a two pivot Fender bridge.

The only person that can truly say whether it is acceptable to them or not is the person asking the question in the first place.

 

[Logrinn]

@stratamania: of course, that makes perfect sense, now that you mention it.
I just assumed that it was the 510 version where one of the knife edges is straight.
Makes me wonder if that version of the 510 wasn't invented exactly for these scenarios where that bridge would fit all types of post spacings/widths.

Hmm ... could that mean that Warmoth are specifying that the routing is for a Gotoh 510 but a customer might in fact have a Gotoh 510? Er, wait, what ..? :icon_scratch:

Gotoh 510:

Also Gotoh 510:

 

[stratamania]

There are quite a few 510 variant trems nowadays. I think the one the OP is mentioning is closer to the top one pictured which is like the one I have which went onto the Warmoth body without issue.

An alternate bridge with one straight side might be a way forward if the holes don't line up well enough. Plenty of bridge options available. To change the holes in the body is a different kettle of fish.

 

[Logrinn]

Plenty of bridge options available. To change the holes in the body is a different kettle of fish.

Indeed! 

 

[Overseasguitar]

I have indeed the first trem.

as to it being acceptable, wat I meant by that is if a deviation from specs can be deemed acceptable by Warmoth. Obviously, I do not think this is acceptable from a precision CNC routed guitarbody.

The issue is, that the hole that is off centerline is the bass side. The tremolos with one straight edge are the ones on the treble side (see the second tremolo). So, in order for me to have this body to work correctly, the hole on the bass side nerds to be pluggen and redrilled.

 

[Logrinn]

But the second tremolo has the straight knife edge on the bass side ... :dontknow:

 

[Fat Pete]

Hmm ... could that mean that Warmoth are specifying that the routing is for a Gotoh 510 but a customer might in fact have a Gotoh 510? Er, wait, what ..? :icon_scratch:

The '510' just indicates their higher-end range. This unit is also a 510:

The specific model is indicated by letters before and/or after the 510. For example, the TOM variant above is a 510FB.

To the OP, I agree that if you're measuring accurately and a spacing spec'ed at 2.2" is actually 2.25" then it's not unreasonable that you're peeved about it - especially as the bridge you've chosen doesn't have the tolerance flexibility of the Wilkinson/Gotoh VS100 or Gotoh EV510T. BTW, which bridge mount did you order - Fender Am Std or Gotoh? If the latter, that could explain the 'excess routing' in point 1 (though I'm not confident that I actually know what you mean by this) as the Gotoh rout is intended for the VS100, not the 510 unit you have.

Also, no offence intended, but I'd also question your assumption that the stud holes are off on one side. Where are you measuring from? I would establish a centre based on the neck pocket and pickup routing, not the joint line of the top. While you'd certainly expect the join to be central I wouldn't rely on it to the mm.

FWIW, in your position I think I'd get a VS100 or EV510T, put together what I'm sure has the potential to be a really great guitar, and just put this part of the process down to experience. A few challenges along the way make a good end result even more satisfying. Good luck!

 

[BroccoliRob]

wait, which bridge did you have warmoth rout for? i'm considering a strat style gotoh 510 ts trem for my build, but i saw on their website that it's $45 and they want you to mail in the bridge. did you do this? Or is this body routed for a different bridge and are just trying to use the 510 with it? im not sure if it's worth the hassle to mail it so i might use something different

 

[Overseasguitar]

But the second tremolo has the straight knife edge on the bass side ... :dontknow:

Oops, you are right off course. How dit I miss that??? It might help... :dontknow:

I had the body routed for the standard fender 2 point tremolo. After a lot of research on (amongst others) this board, that is a good fit. The trem is almost the same as the fender 2 point trem. It has the same tremolo posts spacing and the only mod I had to do was to remove a little wood behind the trem arm (towards the butt of the guitar), to accommodate the bolt which which it is attached to the bottom plate. This trem is meant to be a high(er) quality drop in for the standard USA trem Fender uses.

The 510 trem rout Warmoth offers is not the same and I did not mail the trem to Warmoth. I measured the trem and found it consistent with the standard rout I ordered.

However, I did use the joint of the top as centerline and to be fair: it is not the best point of reference. After close inspection I noticed the centerline of the body blank is not completely aligned with the top.

Thanks everybody. Apparently there is a great deal of acceptance for these kind of faults. I was (and stil am) flabbergasted by the lack of precision and self critisism warmoth displays towards this situation. If I buy a CNC routed body of over USD 500 I expect a level precision that I am not able to obtain myself with my own meagre tools. To be honest, I could have done a better job myself.

Except for the fine woods used, this will be the last unit I buy from warmoth. I seriously doubt whether I will get this guitar to play well or at all and that is insane for a neck/body combination which costed a total of USD 900.

 

[stratamania]

wait, which bridge did you have warmoth rout for? i'm considering a strat style gotoh 510 ts trem for my build, but i saw on their website that it's $45 and they want you to mail in the bridge. did you do this? Or is this body routed for a different bridge and are just trying to use the 510 with it? im not sure if it's worth the hassle to mail it so i might use something different

Which Gotoh 510 tremolo do Warmoth rout for.

Gotoh 510 TS-RS1 2-Hole Tremolo  which is a $45 upcharge.

Reference http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Bodies/Options/BridgeRoutingOptions.aspx

This rout, is essentially a two point American Standard rout, with a slight bit of wood extra removed to accommodate the tremolo arm mounting side of the bridge.

This is different to the Wilkinson rout they offer which is larger. Even though the Wilkinson tremolo  that Warmoth sells is made by Gotoh it is not the same rout as for a Gotoh 510 trem series.

It really is essential that if intending to fit a tremolo that is not part of the standard routs that Warmoth do that the measurements etc are checked by the builder. Fortunately Gotoh publish some very good spec diagrams.

The body I have was routed for the Gotoh 510 TS-RS1 2-Hole Tremolo  with the surcharge. I did not send my bridge in and my bridge is a different model to that but with exactly the same dimensions. Therefore I exchanged a couple of e mails and it was done for me.

This rout for the Gotoh 510 TS-RS1 2-Hole Tremolo is similar to the two point American Standard rout and you could adjust that rout for the 510 tremolo variants of that type to fit with a file. This appears to be what OverseasGuitar has done and may now  have a body he is not able to send back.

If you click on the Strat Build link in my signature you can see the fitting of the 510 Series tremolo I have. As well as the rest of the build process and some things I ran into that I had to solve you can read about but overall my experience was positive and I ended up with a killer guitar.

 

[stratamania]

It looks like these variants would work for OverseasGuitar.

http://g-gotoh.com/international/product/ev510t-fe.html

http://g-gotoh.com/international/product/ev510t-bs.html

 

[Logrinn]

Exactly :icon_thumright:

 

[Cagey]

Apparently there is a great deal of acceptance for these kind of faults. I was (and stil am) flabbergasted by the lack of precision and self critisism warmoth displays towards this situation. If I buy a CNC routed body of over USD 500 I expect a level precision that I am not able to obtain myself with my own meagre tools. To be honest, I could have done a better job myself.

I'm sure location errors are not acceptable at Warmoth, and am equally sure that's a big reason they mill their bodies with CNC machines rather than free-standing bandsaws, drill presses, hammers and tongs. With a CNC, you can perform an operation at location x, y, z, then index by some exact offset or to an absolute coordinate at another position and do another operation, and it'll be spot on repeatedly. About the only way to be off location is to program the wrong offset or coordinate, have a machine failure or allow workpiece movement.

I seriously doubt the CNC would have been programmed wrong all this time - somebody would have noticed over the course of the many thousands of bodies milled. If the machine failed in such a way as to prevent its finding coordinates reliably, then you'd have more than one dimension out of spec. If the workpiece moved, then it's unlikely you'd get two pieces to move the exact same direction the exact same amount. But, I suppose stranger things have happened.

We could consider that the raw material is still just wood, after all. It's squishy stuff, relatively speaking. It's not going to maintain its intrinsic dimensions or hold position in the tool with the same kind of precision you would get with a more stable material such as metal. Plus, I'm not sure eyeballing the position of a caliper simply laid in the proximity of a dimension is the best way to determine tolerances/errors as small as 50 thousandths of an inch. Just because your tool is accurate to 3 digits past the right of the decimal doesn't mean your hands/eyes are.

As has been mentioned already, when you see the design of most two-point fulcrum vibrato bridges, you notice everybody expects the centerlines of the mounting studs to be off by an apparently large amount as evidenced by the fixed location for the post on one side and a variable one on the other.

Wood movement, hand tools, human error, environmental changes, etc. all conspire to prevent two holes in a piece of wood from being precisely separated to within mere thousandths of an inch. Again, it's wood, not metal, and we're fabricating a guitar body, not the bearings for turbine spindles.

In my long experience, Warmoth's bodies/necks are as accurate as such things can be. I've never encountered any others that were more so, even from the OEMs their parts are intended to replace. In fact, you're much more likely to get a blueprint-accurate Fender body/neck from Warmoth than you are from Fender. Of course, that's not to say Warmoth is incapable of making a mistake - they are a bunch of left-coasters, after all  :laughing7: - but they have done quite a bit to ensure such events are rare.