Wiring a 500k Push/Pull Pot as a bridge pickup tone and coil tap?
- Thread starter LushTone
- Start date
LushTone
Senior Member
- Messages
- 487
line6man said:
Oh gotcha, I meant tapped.
Another question: If I want a separate tone for my neck pickup (Fralin Twangmaster) and the push/pull tone for the bridge (Van Zandt Trubucker), should I use caps on both? 500k pots. And if so, is there a recommended cap? For a switch I'm using a three way blade.
line6man
Epic Member
- Messages
- 6,443
LushTone said:
That depends. If you want a different capacitance for each pickup, then use two capacitors. Otherwise, use only one. If you have two capacitors, then the tone controls will add together when you use both pickups at the same time.
As far as the capacitance, that is very much a personal preference. Tradition typically dictates the use of 0.047uF capacitors with high impedance humbuckers, and 0.022uF capacitors with high impedance single coils. If you want a darker tone, go for a higher value. If you want a brighter tone, go for a lower value.
line6man
Epic Member
- Messages
- 6,443
LushTone said:
The type of capacitor you use has no effect on tone. You are dealing with a low voltage, low current, low frequency application, where the differences between various capacitors will not come into play in the circuit. People like to market those expensive capacitors, because it brings in profits. The truth is, those paper in oil capacitors are actually junk, because they leak over time. They were used years ago, because there were much more limited technologies for capacitors back then. There is no reason to waste your money on them now.
Orange Drops are good capacitors, but they have become expensive over the years. They are the ideal type of capacitor, in any case, because they are stable over time, and they have respectable tolerances. A lower cost capacitor like a ceramic would work equally well, but the tolerance may be very poor.
TonyFlyingSquirrel
Master Member
- Messages
- 4,434
Lushtone, I have a .022uF Orange Drop Cap in the tone control of my Bari-Tele that I brought in to show you last week.
Actually, I bought it from your store.
Here's a neat way to experiment: http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Pickups_and_Electronics/How_to_let_your_ears_find_the_best_tone_cap_for_your_guitar.html
Actually, I bought it from your store.
Here's a neat way to experiment: http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Pickups_and_Electronics/How_to_let_your_ears_find_the_best_tone_cap_for_your_guitar.html
drewfx
Hero Member
- Messages
- 1,204
TonyFlyingSquirrel said:
I'm sorry, but that contains profound ignorance of the basics of human perception.
What he writes (and says in the video when talking about different cap types):
What he should say, if he either wasn't trying to sell something and/or wasn't completely ignorant of the way humans perceive things is:
"It's between you and your own ears AND YOUR FREAKING IMAGINATION, nobody else, NOT EVEN YOU, can tell you what you are hearing vs. WHAT YOU MIGHT BE IMAGINING. Also doing a sighted test is known to affect what you think you are hearing. AND IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW SPECIAL YOU THINK YOU ARE, BECAUSE IT ALL HAPPENS BEFORE IT REACHES YOUR CONSCIOUS PERCEPTION. If you care about reality and want to prove something to yourself involving reality, you need to use proper objective testing - very simply, if you are talking about objective reality you need to use objective methods, or else you aren't talking about objective reality at all"
Of course it's between you and your brain whether you care about something called "reality" or instead enjoy a world of magic fairy unicorns, and no one can tell you what to think.
Unfortunately people tend to want it both ways - they want to do a nonobjective test and pretend their results have more weight because they "tested it". Unfortunately a test without all proper controls carries no weight because it's the presence of the controls that give objective results their weight.
Damn drew, I think you're reading a little too much into that posted quote. To me he's saying decide for yourself how they sound to you. They clearly state it's for you to decide. It's just a tool man. How is liking the tone of one capacitor over another not reality? I totally understand what you're saying about scientific method but I don't see where that quote even remotely tries to approach that.
Neo Fender
Senior Member
- Messages
- 210
To drive this thread deeper into minutiaeville…
I prefer orange drops for the reasons mentioned plus they’re not crazy expensive. They can get bulky so locating them in a small cavity could be a challenge but they usually have long leads that provide some flexibility in positioning them. Just make sure the leads don’t contact anything else unintentionally.
I prefer orange drops for the reasons mentioned plus they’re not crazy expensive. They can get bulky so locating them in a small cavity could be a challenge but they usually have long leads that provide some flexibility in positioning them. Just make sure the leads don’t contact anything else unintentionally.
TonyFlyingSquirrel
Master Member
- Messages
- 4,434
Neo Fender said:
I add a lil heat shrink to some of the leads sometimes to prevent contact with other parts, but rarely is this needed. Left over "push back" from push back wire leads works well for this also.
line6man
Epic Member
- Messages
- 6,443
Neo Fender said:
Compared to other film capacitors, they are becoming crazy expensive. Lots of vendors are charging several dollars for them. I suppose it isn't a big deal for a guitar project, however, because you only need one or two.
As for the size, make sure to get the 200V version, rather than the 600V version. The lower voltage rating means that the capacitor is smaller.
LushTone
Senior Member
- Messages
- 487
Hmm, all good food for thought. I'm gonna go with the popular orange drop for now.
That leads me to another choice though: I'm going to try this guitar with 500k pots first, so should I use .022 caps or .047 on either of the Twangmaster (neck) or Van Zandt humbucker?
From my understanding, the .022 (versus the .047) caps retain more brightness as they get rolled off. However, since I'm using the brighter pots, should I use the .047 caps? Should I use .022 on one and .047 on the other?
Also, I've playtested this guitar acoustically and it has serious balls. Punchy like no other guitar I've played (I don't say that lightly). Not overly bright, but no lack of clarity either.
That leads me to another choice though: I'm going to try this guitar with 500k pots first, so should I use .022 caps or .047 on either of the Twangmaster (neck) or Van Zandt humbucker?
From my understanding, the .022 (versus the .047) caps retain more brightness as they get rolled off. However, since I'm using the brighter pots, should I use the .047 caps? Should I use .022 on one and .047 on the other?
Also, I've playtested this guitar acoustically and it has serious balls. Punchy like no other guitar I've played (I don't say that lightly). Not overly bright, but no lack of clarity either.
line6man
Epic Member
- Messages
- 6,443
LushTone said:
Think of it like adjusting the frequency control on a parametric equalizer. 0.022uF is like a higher frequency band, whereas 0.047uF is like a lower frequency band. You might also want to keep in mind that a 500k tone pot is electrically identical to a 250k tone pot, from 0 to 250k. The difference between 250k and 500k tone pots is that 500k gives you some more brightness in the last fifth of the rotation (Or somewhere around there, assuming an audio taper.), whereas a 250k pot gives a greater degree of adjustability to fine tune lower resistances, because there is less of a range of resistance to sweep through, throughout the rotation.
As for which capacitance for which pickup, don't waste even a second trying to philosophize. Experiment, instead. It is quick and easy to play around with capacitors, and if you don't want to do extra soldering, you can use alligator clips to mess around.
Cagey
Mythical Status
- Messages
- 24,425
line6man said:
Absolutely. And alligator clip wires can be had for puppy chow at Radio Shack, if there's still one open in the neighborhood. Last I heard they were (finally!) going bankrupt. Otherwise, Amazon is your huckleberry.
Point I'd like to make, though, is don't be alarmed if things get noisy while swapping parts in/out. The clip wires aren't shielded and they're usually about a foot long, so they make great antennas. You'll want to ignore the hum while you're experimenting.
drewfx
Hero Member
- Messages
- 1,204
pabloman said:
I think perhaps I was in a tad cranky mood when I posted that. :dontknow:
But:
1. I believe statements like "nobody else can tell you what you hear" is anti-science and anti-knowledge. Someone like line6man will go into some detail describing why the type of cap doesn't really matter in this application, only the value. I see "no one else can tell you" as dismissive of the knowledge people have bothered to acquire. A pet peeve I guess.
2. The word "proof" in "a simple way to prove to yourself" - where I come from, "proof" implies objectivity. It is then followed by a video describing that doesn't "prove" anything other than the fact that he either has no idea what he's talking about regarding basic testing procedures or has other motives, such as...
3. Taking advantage of people's ignorance and and suggesting they try different caps types (as opposed to values). Gee, why not buy one of each type and see which is best to your ears? Especially the ones that cost $24 each and the ones that cost $12 dollars each and received a "4.92 average rating from 24 reviews" (out of 5 stars). Let's see, if we bought one of each type cap at multiple capacitance values, just how much would that cost?
Perhaps I'm reading too much or being too cynical, but perhaps you're being too naive. :dontknow:
But it's all good. Sorry for diversionary rant. :rock-on:
Ok.....I'll bite, please axplain to me how I might be naive. Where in the effing video does he say anything like "PIO sounds better than ceramic" or anything close to that? All he says is there's a lot of talk of them sounding different, see for your self if they do. That's it man. That's the jist of the whole video. Being pro knowledge you should understand how difficult a truely objective test would be to perform. I'm guessing that's why they aren't done. There's just way too many variables. I mean a strings tone degrades with every pluck right? No two guitars are the same. Barometric pressure will affect vibration from a scientific stand point too right? Drew I gotta say I don't think you are as "pro-knowledge as you'd like to think. It is absolutely idiotic to try and quantify sound. You realize by nature sound is subjective right? It's a perception. Most learned folks understand this. So again, in the video he says "sound". Thats it.
Attachments
Cagey
Mythical Status
- Messages
- 24,425
You know what the common denominator is in all the capacitor testing videos? Nobody checks the value of the capacitors they use. They all rely on the marked value, as if it has any relation to the real value, which it never does. They can be off by 20% or more. Some guy hooks up a half dozen various caps to a switching arrangement of some sort, all of which may be marked as .022µF parts, and never bothers to check to see if that's what their actual capacitance is. Then, surprise! They sound different! Well, duh! Whaddaya expect?
The effect a capacitor has on a circuit is due to a phenomena known as reactance. It's a physics thing, governed by well-known laws that are proven and immutable. It's not subjective at all. No matter how or what it's made out of, a capacitor of a given value will always behave the same way. The different types that are available mainly change what voltage they'll fail at. In some cases, particularly when you get up into very high-frequency applications, packaging makes a difference, but that's a million miles from where guitars operate.
I guarantee you that if you take a 10¢ ceramic cap and a $25 Sprague Vitamin Q paper over oil cap that are both exactly .022µF that you won't hear any difference at all. The only difference is in perception - the more expensive part must be better, right? Well, yeah, if you need a 1000 volt breakover point. But, guitars operate in the millivolt range. So, wtf?
The effect a capacitor has on a circuit is due to a phenomena known as reactance. It's a physics thing, governed by well-known laws that are proven and immutable. It's not subjective at all. No matter how or what it's made out of, a capacitor of a given value will always behave the same way. The different types that are available mainly change what voltage they'll fail at. In some cases, particularly when you get up into very high-frequency applications, packaging makes a difference, but that's a million miles from where guitars operate.
I guarantee you that if you take a 10¢ ceramic cap and a $25 Sprague Vitamin Q paper over oil cap that are both exactly .022µF that you won't hear any difference at all. The only difference is in perception - the more expensive part must be better, right? Well, yeah, if you need a 1000 volt breakover point. But, guitars operate in the millivolt range. So, wtf?
Similar threads
