When do errors and mistakes stop being acceptable in a custombuild?

Orpheo

Hero Member
Messages
2,783
Yesterday I saw a major defect in the backwood of one of custombuild les pauls I am having build in the UK. It was a slipped router, taking out a chunk of wood, only to be reglued again, rather poorly.

IMAG0326.jpg


the oil-finish reacted badly with the flamed maple ASH (which I DID not specify, I asked maple!) and 'developed' mineral streaking.

the headstock inlay turned out to be not-as tidy as one suspects from a customshop. it has 3 parts of a circle in it, and those circle--parts aren't tidy with tight, square edges, but blurry. To make things even more painful, the inlay looks super-tight and neat on the other guitar!

Ofcourse this isn't the only thing that went bad. We're talking about a split rosewood top, early in the construction (which was fixed), bad inlay (which were fixed with a brandnew fretboard).

I can't help but wonder when this ordeal will end. And moreover, when is it enough? At what point can one say; sorry, but this is just a piece of crap, stop it, don't make me pay, or give me (some of) my money back. or, stop, route off the back, and glue on a new one, cause this is shiteeTY work!

Oh, by the way, did I tell you guys that the top of the first one he made me, got a crack in the middle? a lovely, failed glue-joint. after less than 2 years of service.
 
Hmmmm.

So what does the builder have to say to all this?

BTW, I have in the past accepted custom work that was not perfect, but that ding and re-glue I would likely reject.
 
Orpheo

I am so sorry to hear of this situation....condolences mate.  :sad:

What do you do next? Well, we can all offer our opinions but really, it's up to you and what you should feel comfortable with.

I am reluctant to offer any more comment as I know the builder involved has a forum account here, and a previous Thread was locked when comments got rough by a disaffected customer (not Orpheo).

But, it's not good.





 
mayfly said:
Hmmmm.

So what does the builder have to say to all this?

BTW, I have in the past accepted custom work that was not perfect, but that ding and re-glue I would likely reject.

He said nothing, until I confronted him with the fissure! He NEVER emailed me with 'hey, I had a problem, this and that happend, what do you think?'. If I knew it 2 years ago i would've said: NEW BACK! but now I also want a new back, but I ALSO want to get rid of this as soon as possible. I don't write ASAP, because I want to stress out how badly I want that ;)

@ozziepete: thanks man :) I don't know what I'll do next. I don't like the idea of even MORE veneers and pieces of wood. I want it clean, and this is clean-ish, with features, so to say. I don't want to cover up mistakes.



but I'm also thinking, lets fuckin finish the job, just cover them in oil, and send them to me. but on the other hand, these guitars were supposed to be my crown pieces/jewels, the top of the line.

what would you guys do?
 
Orpheo said:
what would you guys do?

Me? Personally? Sorry to come off sounding like a grumpy old man (which I am), but I'd be talking to my local government consumer protection agency & taking advice.  If you are in Europe too (he's in the UK)  then there should be some cross border protection via EU trade?

I also wouldn't write any further correspondence to him until you have taken some advice & very clear about what your rights are in this transaction.
 
One-offs are rarely perfect. I'm sure everyone who's built a guitar or bass on this forum has a dirty little secret about some or all of their projects. Maybe the neck is shimmed, or the wiring is a rat's nest, or the pickguard is slightly off-center, or a screw head got glued on in place of a snapped-off screw for a tuning lug, on and on. Things happen and you adjust. But, using ash in place of maple is hardly a casual mistake, and taking a bite out of it with a router is just a tragedy for the builder, not something you give a lick and a promise and try to pass off as acceptable.

But, you have to decide for yourself how much is tolerable. You know what you paid for the things. What you get may not be perfect, but some flaws are bound to exist no matter who does the work. So, you have to decide where to draw the line.

One of the downsides of dealing with individual contractors is they don't generally have the resources to just eat a failure. So, backing out may be difficult, even if the builder agrees he's under water on the thing. So, you may want to allow the thing to play out so you at least end up with a couple guitars, even if you're not completely happy with them. Call it an expensive lesson, and if anyone asks if you know where to get custom guitars made, tell the story. If the builder is worried you won't tell a good story and he would like to continue in that business, then he'll do what's necessary to give you a good story to tell.
 
Wow. I think most of us could live with a little micro scratch here and there or a small ding on the underside of the body. But this is ridiculous. If it were me, after what you've already been through, I would ship the guitar back and demand a refund in full and then forget about getting anything from the guy again. Is that practical? Is it even possible? I'm assuming not, but I'd for sure want to get rid of the guitar, never deal with builder again, and somehow hopefully get my money back.

Good luck with this, man.
 
thanks for the reply guys. but there's nothing to ship back, yet, cause they're not finished. yet. after 2.5 years.
 
Orpheo said:
thanks for the reply guys. but there's nothing to ship back, yet, cause they're not finished. yet. after 2.5 years.

If you haven't paid for it yet, then I would cancel the order and not do business with that person ever again.  If you have paid for it, I would demand a full refund and not to business with that person ever again.  That is totally unacceptable, especially from a custom builder who obviously takes no pride in his/her workmanship.  Its not like you went to 'Guitar Scratch N' Dent' looking for a body or neck.
 
Because I'm so much 'done' with this company, I want to pop the lid and show you my latest email, albeit perhaps a bit modified ;)

Hi Ben,

Yesterday was a really shocking day to me. Let me tell you why.

First of all, I noticed no less than three defects in the guitars: one of them was easy to fix, one was a bit more severe (namely the binding) and the third one is utterly unacceptable: a chunk of purpleheart torn away by the router.

Being a luthier, moreover: a guitar custom shop, you should understand that this is beyond unacceptable, this is an utter shame to your profession. I needed 24 hours to mull it over, but I don't want the purpleheart veneer solution. This project is a accumulation of mistakes, grave errors, and to some level even plain incompetence.

I asked for some features, and you agreed to that. If you thought it could not be done (at least not by you), then you should have informed me right away, giving me the opportunity to come up with something else, or simply forget about the entire feature altogether.

For instance, the flamed maple binding: you claim that it is as I wanted, maple. But then again, both are white, and it looked nice and flamy, so it was OK. However, the mineral streaking, or whatever those brown stripes may be, are just unacceptable for a guitar of this alleged sophistication! But even if it was just in the wood, it shouldn't be there in the first place. It is common knowledge that you should have tested the oil on some pieces of scrap before applying it on the guitar. Even so, after the first signs of streaking appeared, you should have ceased immediately and inform me about the unfortunate occurrence, and we might come up with another solution. Putting on three coats before as much as allowing me to check your work and give my comments, is no professional attitude, to say the least.

But what bothers me most is the tear out of the purpleheart. That was done over two years ago! It is difficult to notice it when depicted. Since I can only check your advancements through photographic material only, I thought it was just some brownish stain, due to the fact that these pieces were being worked on, and that it might sand out in the end.

You only told me yesterday about the tear out on the back and the back plate, when you should have informed me about this right after it occurred, to ask me what should be the next step to take. To continue building and secretly hoping I would not notice your error(s) is a totally inappropriate procedure. The same applies to the inlay. I fail to understand why I should point out that the dot of the 'i' seems to have disappeared, that the inlay looks crooked and blotched and last but not least that there is a defect in the back; all of which was in fact already known to you (for some time).

The allegation that “wood is unpredictable” cuts no ice. Leaving aside the binding, the tear out is beyond the pale. I don't think d'Aquisto, Feline Guitars, or Nik Huber would try to cover it up and simply hope the customer will not notice.

By the way, you alleged that a top split never happened to you before?

www.crimsonguitarsreviews.com

According to this site, it did happen in that stratty type guitar. The website shows some beautiful pictures, clearly depicting your mistakes and errors. This won't do your business any good either, I suppose.

I have no intention whatsoever to ruin you or your business. I just want 2 guitars, built and designed to perfection. The latter is already done since I designed them! However, I have serious doubts about the first. If I could build these guitars myself, believe me, I would. Unfortunately being unable to do just that, I turned to you, a luthier.

Looks like you need to improve not only your luthier skills, but your communication skills as well.

Kind regards,

Orpheo
 
I don't know (or really care) what he sold to Robert Fripp - perhaps he is capable of concentrating on doing at least an adequate job when he's under "pressure', so to speak - but I would personally find it impossible to enjoy playing anything he sent ME, PERSONALLY, after all these botched, nonsense problems. The entire time you're playing it, you'll be looking for faults in the finish, the accuracy of fit, and the SOUND. And, of course, finding them.

Wood is NOT unpredictable, except to someone who is inexperienced and trying to accomplish things with inlays and finishes for which he hasn't been trained or educated well enough to "pull them off." It ain't "bad luck", it ain't a crapshoot, it's promising customers things that you don't know how to do. I, umm, hate to be so negative, but if you're asking for a reality check, this is just how I see it. You are telling yourself  "oh but he did THIS part right!" in order to negate the awful truth.

As to what I would do? I would do everything under the sun, moon and stars to get my money back. You don't really want these things now, do you? I would find out all the legal recourses - you have a substantive, accurate e-mail trail of everything that you specified, right? I know very little about this branch of the law, especially as it pertains to international commerce - but at the very least, shining a light (or the threat of it) may straighten something out. I don't really know what the guy who started the website had tried already - he had a guitar in hand that was crap, but clever Ben has installed a clause in his "terms and conditions" which basically exempts him from any refunds for "custom work" - and all he sells is custom work!
http://www.crimsonguitars.com/terms-and-conditions

Did you SIGN on to these terms, or is this something he has retroactively come up with? He's not allowed to change the terms of service after you've contracted under a previous set, but again, where do you go with this... I would absolutely, certainly ask him if he is using Robert Fripp's name and reputation with Fripp's full knowledge of the business he conducting under the auspices of being "Robert Fripp's luthier" - the implied action there is clearly contacting Fripp and asking HIM if he know what's being done using his reputation. I understand that this Ben Crowe is in way over his head here - but that's not your fault, and you're under no sort of duty or duress to "be a nice guy" and support him in his "earn while you learn" phase of tearing up wood and teaching himself finishing and inlay.

EDIT - OK. I read through his terms a bit more:

Crimson Guitars shall not be liable for loss of profits, loss of business, or other consequential, special, indirect, or punitive damages, even if advised of the possibility of such damages, or for any claim by any third party except as expressly provided herein. Customer agrees that for any liability related to the purchase of products or services, Crimson Guitars is not liable or responsible for any amount of damages above the amount paid by the customer for the purchase of products or services. Under no circumstances, including, but not limited to, negligence, shall Crimson Guitars be liable for any direct, indirect, special, incidental, or consequential damages, including, but not limited to, loss of profit arising out of the use, or the inability to use, the materials on this site, even if Crimson Guitars has been advised of the possibility of such damages.

I do do some work for lawyers in a different capacity, and the above is deranged. He is attempting to usurp contract law, by declaring himself pre-emptively above it somehow?  "Under no circumstances, including, but not limited to, negligence, shall Crimson Guitars be liable for any direct, indirect, special, incidental, or consequential damages..." No, dude, that's not how either business OR law works - you obtain a business license and perform your work in a country under the laws that pertain to your line of work, i.e., manufacturing. And if you steal from, mislead or abuse your customers, the law under which you agreed to operate is what matters, not some asinine self-proclaimed "exemption."

"Just because I say so, hmmmph!" He can write any crap he wants to, but I can assure you, no lawyer signed off on that silliness above. Again, I don't know what British law says, but there absolutely, surely is something along the lines of  violation of contract. The all-important, over-arching principle is, what did you pay him to do? And what has been done? Under the following outlined below, YOU DO NOT NEED A SIGNED FORMAL CONTRACT - IF, and this is a big, big IF - you have clear-cut set of e-mail correspondence that serves as the "offer and acceptance" denoted below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offer_and_acceptance

You can do this thing, but I would go out of the way to avoid the crimson guitar review guy's approach, as some counter-charges of "slander" and "defamation" will only confuse the issue.
 
@stubhead: I just want them finished. thats it. I love the fretboards and topwoods, and the wooden binding, eventhough they're smeared and I love the backs, eventhough its chipped. but I'm supposed to like 'm just enough to maintain the guitars and to hate 'm just enough to have them changed.
 
Why bother writing something that long that this joke of "luthier" will never bother to try to read?  Just say "send me what you've got" and let someone who isn't worthless finish it as best as can be done.  That is, if you love the woods so much.  It will take years of hassle with legalities, and you will likely never see satisfaction.  Your personal happiness deserves to just cut your losses with this fool and move on.  Like was said above: lesson learned about this asshat.  Life is too wonderful to allow it to be obscured by the frustration you're dealing with.  Either way, best of luck, man.  Here in the states, we'd throw a blanket party.  Perhaps you have a similar tradition for people of his ilk?

-Mark
 
You contracted work and it's not being delivered to the standard you reasonably expected; it's time to walk away from this.
 
AprioriMark said:
Why bother writing something that long that this joke of "luthier" will never bother to try to read?
I've gotten the impression that the builder's biggest issue is actually doing too much communication - blogs, photos, e-mail responses, etc.  I took to heart in an unrelated thread a comment about how every request for a status update slows down progress, and in the case of this builder my impression is that he really needs to make himself more scarce and put that time into his work, to the point where when inevitable accidents happen he's addressing them immediately, properly and communicating the issues after they're resolved.
 
All that clause is saying is you can't sue him for lost wages from missing a gig or session if something happens and the guitar becomes inserviceable. That clause is in everyone's terms and conditions. It has nothing to do with not delivering a product or subpar product. This is a complicated mess full of speculation and it really doesn't need to be clouded with a witch hunt mentality. This guy has obviously gotten in way over his head. Orph I really feel for you on this. It is a shame to have something that was supposed to be a culmination of your absolute dream guitar turn into such a nightmare. I'm sure its almost something you'd rather not deal with anymore. I think its time to find out your legal options. Who knows maybe after the courts settle it you could end up with enough tools and lumber to build your own.
 
AprioriMark said:
Why bother writing something that long that this joke of "luthier" will never bother to try to read?  Just say "send me what you've got" and let someone who isn't worthless finish it as best as can be done.  That is, if you love the woods so much.  It will take years of hassle with legalities, and you will likely never see satisfaction.  Your personal happiness deserves to just cut your losses with this fool and move on.  Like was said above: lesson learned about this asshat.  Life is too wonderful to allow it to be obscured by the frustration you're dealing with.  Either way, best of luck, man.  Here in the states, we'd throw a blanket party.  Perhaps you have a similar tradition for people of his ilk?

-Mark

Well,he did reply :) and I have some choices, each of them as ugly as the other. I just want my guitars, but I feel very ripped if I were to get just these guitars (in an unfinished state). In all fair honesty, I want my guitars, all the parts, bits and pieces, and then I want an extra fee as uhm.. retaliation? is that the right word? as a way making it all a bit better after all this hassle.
 
Well, you are entitled under most versions of contract law to some discount from whatever you paid that represents the difference between the value of what you paid for and the value of what you got - the idea being that you would either have that much less satisfaction, or you would take that returned money and pay someone else to finish the job.  So yes, it would be fair and reasonable to say "give me the uncompleted work, whatever state it's in, and some percentage of whatever I paid you." 

That said, he is entitled to some compensation for what he has completed, but what he says he's entitled to and what you say he's entitled to is where it gets sticky.

Sorry you're in this mess, Orph.  Good luck.  You've been more than fair with this builder.
 
Have to say I saw that chunk out in the first photo yesterday on the builder's twitter pic feed and my heart sank for you, Orph. Nearly sent you a PM but 1) thought (correctly) you'd probably see it anyway and b) didn't want to be a s*itstirrer.
 
Back
Top