What finish preserves the sound of the wood

[pilot2222]

There are many options with regards to finishing a guitar and I will be finishing this strat myself in the very near future.  Between the grain fillers, stains, sealers, clear coats etc I am worried that I may be muffling the natural sound of the instrument by doing too much.  (Maple Top - Mahogany back - mahogany neck - rosewood fretboard) 

A friend of mine suggested applying stain to the maple top, grain filling the entire body (fretboard excluded), apply another coat or shade of stain to the maple top, sealing the entire body (except the fretboard) and then applying tung oil.  Is this best way to preserve the sound qualities of the wood or should I just go ahead and hit with lacquer after the sanding sealer?

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Poly vs. Nitro

 

[MUYFUE]

Can o' Worms, mah buddy!

I don't hear a significant tonal difference between finish types. In other words, I don't think it matters THAT much on an electric. Give me an archtop or a classical and this debate makes more sense.

There are MANY, ESPECIALLY on this forum, who will swear that one type of finish sounds better than another.
The key, to my understanding is to get out of the woods way as much as possible, while protecting it's structure.

I prefer Acrylic and Ploy finishes, for their durability.
I'm ready to be set on fire by the flames of 'purists'

 

[mayfly]

I've got poly guitars, and I've got nitro guitars.  There is no difference in tone from what I can tell.

Finish the guitar the way you like - but there will be negligible difference in tone no matter how you do it.  (unless you dip it in concrete or something)  :icon_thumright:

 

[Keyser Soze]

I'd select the finish based on what you find aesthetically pleasing (and feasible if you are going to DIY it) then spend way more time worrying about the sonic effect of your pickup selection, which vastly exceeds that of any finish option.

Heck IMO your choice of plectrum, and string will each will have a greater effect than any due to different finishes.

It's a solid body guitar.

 

[pilot2222]

Great!  I appreciate the feedback.  I have "experience" with DupliColor Lacquer finishes so I will use that for the clear coat, but I will do the grain filler, stain, sealer beforehand.  Thanks again.

 

[elbischoff]

the nitro finish allows the wood to "breathe" which supposedly gets you a better "tone"

 

[-CB-]

My Tele's have been breathing nitro fumes for years, and its really done hell to their nervous systems, which is quite evedent in the odd, and totally uncalled for, notes they often produce.

The breathing wood concept, the "feeding the wood" concept, the feeding your hair concept, the feeding your dead granny concept... all have similar utility in my book.  I like nitro - its EASY, and FIXABLE.  Nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with the finish that Warmoth uses.  It works for them in production, and their stuff has no tone faults on account of the wood or finish.

 

[SimsCustomShop]

Its not the "Type" of clear coat that changes the tonal characteristics of an Instrument, but rather the AMOUNT of clear coat used. If finishes like Polyester, Urethane etc hurt the tone of an instrument I don't think companies like Taylor & PRS would be using Urethane on their acoustics. There have also been studies that applied equal amounts of clear (4 mils of Polyester, Polyurethane, Nitro, Lacquer & Urethane, etc) to 5 different pieces of wood (from the same board) & it showed tonal characteristics do not change from 1 material to the next. Its only when one is sprayed thicker or thinner that differences began to show (And so slightly at that the human ear wouldn't even be able to discern a difference) Also, you can spray the catalized clears (Urethane, Poly, etc) just as thin as the Nitros & laquers if thats what your going for. All you have to do is spray faster, or increase distance, only apply 1 coat, or over reduce it.

Hope this helps!

 

[Mor Paul]

Its not the "Type" of clear coat that changes the tonal characteristics of an Instrument, but rather the AMOUNT of clear coat used. If finishes like Polyester, Urethane etc hurt the tone of an instrument I don't think companies like Taylor & PRS would be using Urethane on their acoustics. There have also been studies that applied equal amounts of clear (4 mils of Polyester, Polyurethane, Nitro, Lacquer & Urethane, etc) to 5 different pieces of wood (from the same board) & it showed tonal characteristics do not change from 1 material to the next. Its only when one is sprayed thicker or thinner that differences began to show. Also, you can spray the catalized clears (Urethane, Poly, etc) just as thin as the Nitros & laquers if thats what your going for. All you have to do is spray faster, or increase distance, only apply 1 coat, or over reduce it.

Hope this helps!

I agree with what you are saying, but do you have links or access to these studies? I'd love to read them, and reference them later.

 

[MUYFUE]

^
^
Good point! I agree as well that it's more about the amount than the type of finish.
Welcome to the board.

 

[SimsCustomShop]

Thanks! I wish I had a link to it. I read it years ago. It made perfect sence tho. I believe the study was done by the Berklee College of Music.

Also, you know how paticular violinists can be about tone. I personally paint Violins for a company & all I use on them is Urethane and I, nor have they, had any complaints about the instruments sound. So, these are things to take into consideration when people tell you paints like Urethane & Poly negatively impact an instruments tone. Generally, it seems to me, when you read such statements, its either from a company who A) Instrument is finished in that or B) A person who believes everything they read.

Why do some BIG companies use products like Nitro & Lacquer then & charge MORE for it if its not better then? Easy....they charge more for it for 3 reasons.

#1 b/c it is much less user friendly. In what way you may ask? Well, #1 it takes sometimes as much as 30 days for Nitro or Lacquer to AIR dry before it can even be buffed, hence slowing down the production process considerably
#2 They can say it allows the instrument to "Breathe" better therfore helping tone, charge more for it, & people will believe them & pay the additiional cost.
#3 B/c it was the type of finish that was used on guitars in the 50's, 60's, etc so therefore it must be better (I don't agree with that at all)

The truth...

Nitro & Lacquer are the absolute cheapest clear coats money can buy. Polyester is about twice the price of the best lacquers & nitros & the Urethane I use is about 4 times the price (approx $200 a gal) These BIG companies are making a killing. Their using the cheapest paint, saying its the best, charging more for it & also saving millions in material costs. Since these clears have no hardner in them they have no UV protection, they yellow in time, the clears crack in time, they chip easily, if you sit them on a guitar stand they mark in a week, etc etc. The only advantage to using air dry clears is COST SAVINGS. Also, being that they are thinner they will run easier when your spraying them, b/c their only about 15% solids, so if you were to put on a 1/2 pint of clear lets say, only 15% of that will be left on the instrument once alll the solvents have evaporated out....this is the reaosn why so many coats of nitro or lacquer have to be applied on....to build it up. Very time consuming & unproductive.

 

[SimsCustomShop]

Also, some people will say Nitro or Lacquer is better for the hobbiest b/c it isn't as toxic for you to breathe. Why do they say this? B/c catalized clears have a hardner in them, which is basically isocyanates....very very bad for you to breathe, however, while nitro & lacquer do NOT have isocyanates they do have MUCH higher VOC's (volitale organic compunds) due to the high amount of solvent that is in them. Think about it this way....if nitro & lacquer were LESS bad for you to breathe wouldn't that mean their BETTER for the enviroment then the more toxic catalized clears? So, if these air drying clears are so much less toxic (as many people like to believe) then why did the EPA stop allowing body shops & car maufactuers to use it in the late 70's? The truth is, while the isocyanates are not good to breathe, the nitro's & lacquers are 80%-85% VOC's which is actually worse for you & the enviroment.

 

[Mor Paul]

Welcome to the boards  :icon_thumright:

You'll really need to dig up that study, man.  :icon_biggrin:

 

[MUYFUE]

oh, by the way, POST BIGGER PICTURES OF THE GUITAR IN YOUR AVATAR!

 

[SimsCustomShop]

Ok! LoL, I hope I don't get in trouble for derailing the thread by doing it tho. More pictures can be seen on our website www.SimsCustomShop.com....P.S cute dog in your avatar!

 

[Xplorervoodoo]

Ok! LoL, I hope I don't get in troiuble for derailing the thread by doing it tho....P.S cute dog in your avatar!

THAT.....

is awesome...  :icon_thumright:

 

[MUYFUE]

Sweet graphics! The detail is impressive. But...
:tard:
With that type of finish it needs to be eq'd for more highs, the Celtic Filigree dampens the 5K attack!
:tard:

And he's not cute. He's a beast!  :icon_jokercolor:
Sweetest dog in the world, unless you're the kid from next door who was climbing on the fence for some reason. Knuckles ran and jumped against the fence so hard he knocked that little delinquent on his rump a few feet back from the fence!

Back on track...It makes sense to me that if the finish is thin it shouldn't inhibit the Good Vibrations. I do like the Gibson and other Nitro finishes for their beauty, but I've only owned Black (Ebony) and Clear gloss. Mine have seemed to soften and get more satin as time goes on and I like that look on the V and Explorer.

For the last few years though I've really taken to Acrylics, though. They seem a bit thicker but are so HARD and glossy!
Yeah, the "purists" will tell me it's because its "wrapped in plastic" But the sound still sounds fine. I can't tell the difference in sound.

HAHA a funny thought just came to my mind. I hope we dont have a shootout between a Nitro and Acrylic finished guitar! :sad1:

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

My (partially deaf) ears can't tell the difference in a finish effecting the tone.  So many variables, pickup, wax-potting, direct wood or pickup ring mounting, amp and amp settings, body wood, neck wood, fretboard wood, bolt-on vs. set neck vs. neck through, scale length, and now apparently fret material, but none of those compare to the biggest variable, the player.  I maintain, regardless of the type of finish, if the pickup cavities and control cavities are left raw, it would probably breathe the best, even when covered by a pickguard, pickups, and control plate.  A chambered guitar, even after a finish, has all of the chambers unfinished with the occasional rout for a ground wire to bridge or channel for pickup wiring letting the chambers breathe.  That's just me though.  Not too long ago I couldn't (and still really can't) tell you the differences between poly or nitro.  Now knowing a little bit, my tone ears' world wasn't flipped upside down.  A finish should protect the wood and look nice.  That's all I want it to do.

 

[Wyliee]

Ok! LoL, I hope I don't get in trouble for derailing the thread by doing it tho. More pictures can be seen on our website www.SimsCustomShop.com....P.S cute dog in your avatar!

I dig it!  Very cool!